PUSHBACK talks

Get Your Housing Right – A Listener’s Guide to the Right to Housing

October 30, 2020 Season 1 Episode 18
PUSHBACK talks
Get Your Housing Right – A Listener’s Guide to the Right to Housing
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PUSHBACK talks
Get Your Housing Right – A Listener’s Guide to the Right to Housing
Oct 30, 2020 Season 1 Episode 18

Everyone knows there is a global housing crisis. More grassroots movements in cities around the world are challenging unaffordability, evictions, inhumane housing conditions, homelessness, and the influx of big capital into the housing sector. To defend their interests, many claim housing is a human right, not a commodity. But what does the human right to housing actually mean? Getting back to basics, The Filmmaker peppers The Advocate with questions about the definition of ‘adequate’ housing, who has the obligation to ensure access to adequate housing, and is there a difference between the right to housing and the right to the city? Consider this a primer, with more to come!

Produced by WG Film 
Recorded & Edited by Mikey Jones
Music by Florencia Di Concilio
Social Media & Support Team - Louise Gustafsson, Maja Moberg & Melinda Bergstrand

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/pushbacktalks)

Show Notes Transcript

Everyone knows there is a global housing crisis. More grassroots movements in cities around the world are challenging unaffordability, evictions, inhumane housing conditions, homelessness, and the influx of big capital into the housing sector. To defend their interests, many claim housing is a human right, not a commodity. But what does the human right to housing actually mean? Getting back to basics, The Filmmaker peppers The Advocate with questions about the definition of ‘adequate’ housing, who has the obligation to ensure access to adequate housing, and is there a difference between the right to housing and the right to the city? Consider this a primer, with more to come!

Produced by WG Film 
Recorded & Edited by Mikey Jones
Music by Florencia Di Concilio
Social Media & Support Team - Louise Gustafsson, Maja Moberg & Melinda Bergstrand

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/pushbacktalks)

Fredrik Gertten  0:12  
I'm Fredrik Gertten, and I'm the filmmaker.

Leilani Farha  0:15  
And I'm Leilani Farha. And I'm the advocate

Fredrik Gertten  0:18  
And this is pushback talks. So this time, we're going to play it really simple. Because I've been sick and I'm tired. And we know we there is no energy to complicate things. So I'm going to ask you really basic things.

Leilani Farha  0:33  
Okay. I think I'm up for it.

Fredrik Gertten  0:35  
Leilani Farha. You were you were the UN Special Rapporteur on adequate housing.

Leilani Farha  0:43  
I was for six long years

Fredrik Gertten  0:45  
So what's so special with you?

Leilani Farha  0:50  
I never really considered myself very special. But that was the name of the role. I was appointed by the UN.

Fredrik Gertten  0:57  
And now when you left the job, you're you're no more special. 

Leilani Farha  1:00  
Definitely not definitely not special. Ask my kids. 

Fredrik Gertten  1:04  
 Should tell you secret.  I think you're special.

Leilani Farha  1:07  
So nice. Well, that's why I do this pod with you.

Fredrik Gertten  1:11  
I guess you've been out with your dog again. And it's garbage day to day. So I guess it's one of the most complicated things in Canada when the dogs are sniffing. Do you have one day for garbage or is that just in your area?  

Leilani Farha  1:24  
We have one day a week for garbage where everyone puts it out on the you know, the curb. But every second week is garbage. So you can't put out garbage every week. This is trying to control waste. I guess it's a good thing. And then every one week you put out paper recycling one week you put out plastic bottles recycling.

Fredrik Gertten  1:46  
And if you do wrong?

Leilani Farha  1:47  
They won't pick it up. And then you get they put this notice a break notice! That you are delinquent. On your bin. Yeah. 

Fredrik Gertten  1:55  
Today we're going to talk about a campaign that is happening within the United Nation. I mean, you worked for the UN sorta. Yeah. And but this is the UN habitat.

Leilani Farha  2:11  
Yeah, UN habitat. So...

Fredrik Gertten  2:13  
What is that? Who are they? 

Leilani Farha  2:14  
Who are they? Well, this is a big deal in a bunch of for a bunch of different reasons. So first of all, UN habitat is the agency within the United Nations system that's responsible for what they call human settlements, which is batidos, neighbourhoods, housing of all different kinds and sorts around the world. They have mostly focused in the global south. But what's so cool is they are doing this, get your housing right campaign. And what I like about it is UN habitat hasn't always embraced the right to housing, but they're really moving in that direction now. And that's super cool. And I think I always thought they should be very focused on the right to housing because they're the UN agency for housing. 

Fredrik Gertten  3:04  
And to the listeners. If you talk to Leilani, and you don't respect the right to housing, try to walk out of the room and come back and try try a new entry. You know, it goes it's it's a mistake to enter and say, Hey, the right to the city, what do you mean, there's no right to the city? Can you explain all this? Why are Why is this so important? It's language is just words. It's just words. 

Leilani Farha  3:31  
It's a great starting point. Yes. Well, you and I, Fredrik, when we were in the midst of well, you were making Push and following me around, we had this discussion, didn't we about the right to the city versus the right to housing, the right to the city is very important. And it's it's a mobilising force. And there are groups that are really working hard to use the notion of the right to the city to to move forward with other human rights. My issue with it is only that you don't find the right to the city in an international treaty that governments have signed on to they've ratified that they have legal obligations to uphold. But you do find the right to housing and a whole bunch of international human rights treaties. And governments have committed to holding themselves accountable to that treaty.

Fredrik Gertten  4:21  
But isn't that all? I mean, I think it's all sounds amazing that governments have signed on to things but it seems like most governments even they don't even know that they sign on to the paper. So does it really matter?

Leilani Farha  4:34  
Yeah, I think most governments don't have a sense. I think governments know that they've signed or ratified all this stuff. I don't think they know what it means. But it is important because how else will we hold governments accountable? If we can't at least put in their face something that they signed, they ratified they said they were committed to if we just say, Oh, you have a moral obligation, just generally do you think that's more persuasive.

Fredrik Gertten  5:01  
You're asking me?

Leilani Farha  5:02  
Yeah, I am asking you, a man of the world,

Fredrik Gertten  5:06  
I think moral is important, but I guess if somebody signs something, it means it means a different it's like, it's like if a company goes out and says we are the green alternative, and then we found out that the green alternative is actually it's just greenwashing it's just bullshit. Yeah, then you can hold them accountable, because they actually said that they are green. So I think if the government signed on to, to the right to housing, and they've they're, they're not really fulfilling it. You could you could tell them: Hey! Come on! You haven't done your job. Exactly. And your house washing yourself, you know,

Leilani Farha  5:47  
something like that? Well, I think, you know, I think a good parallel, Fredrik is the Paris agreement, which is the big climate change agreement that governments from around the world have signed on to and then of course, some have rescinded, like the United States, under Donald Trump, they walked away from the Paris Agreement. But the agreement is what people often use to hold governments accountable to lower emissions, for example, right. There's targets that are part of that agreement. This there are similar treaties that apply in the area of housing, people just don't talk about them as much as the Paris Agreement.

Fredrik Gertten  6:22  
So Leilani, you word if you're the former, Special Rapporteur on adequate housing, and now you're the global director of the shift, an organisation we see the birth of in push, which is like, cool. I was there both in Barcelona, New York. I was a man on the world now, I'm also a man of my own little bunker.

But anyway,

I'm, I have a memory of the world outside. But anyway, if we go really basic, what is the right to housing? Can you can you just give it me very short, in a sentence. 

Leilani Farha  7:01  
It's the right to live in peace with security, and dignity. That's it. That's the best definition. And I love that definition. Because you can then easily think, okay, you walk along the street, and you see someone who's living on the pavements on a sidewalk, whether it's in Delhi or San Francisco, and you know, right away, okay, that person doesn't have a toilet, that person doesn't have a shower. Can they live in dignity? Answer? No. Is it a violation of the right to housing? Answer? Yes. So simple.

Fredrik Gertten  7:36  
But so that also means that if you're living with a one month contract, or one week contract or whatever, then you're not really in peace and security, I guess,

Leilani Farha  7:49  
Perfect. I think I'm a good teacher. That's exactly right. Because you don't have security. If you think, Oh, no, next month, I could be evicted. Right? What kind of security is that? It's not, it's not enough. And we in fact, any study on evictions shows any research shows how incredibly stressful it is to not know if you're going to still have a home in a month or two months or even three months. So and and then if we think Frederick to all the work we've done on financialization, and what we know about financialization is it's driving the rents up. And that just that driving the rents up creates it we we saw we filmed, we talked to so many residents who were feeling the real stress of their rent is going up, their rent is going up or could go up. And that creates insecurity that would also not be compliant with the right to housing.

Fredrik Gertten  8:46  
But now you're again using very complicated language. Financialization. What's that?

Leilani Farha  8:54  
financialization is where housing is used as a place to park, grow, leverage, or hide, big money. How's that?

Fredrik Gertten  9:08  
You are special.

Leilani Farha  9:09  
That was pretty good. That was pretty good. Yeah, that's an it's kind of we can unpack this.

Fredrik Gertten  9:14  
It's some kind of reporting of it. So you're a special reporter. Is that a special return? No, no, no, no, no, this was what you did when you did this was special as

Leilani Farha  9:23  
I was special reporting. Yeah, that was good. So I went from being the special rapporteur  to being the Special Rapporteur

Fredrik Gertten  9:34  
This right to housing. Where does where do we have this?

Leilani Farha  9:38  
Yeah, I mean, it really is an international treaty. So everyone will know about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Most people have heard of that UDHR it's referd to. 

Fredrik Gertten  9:48  
No don't give the short words. That's that's NGO wish, okay? Don't never. That's like NGO ish is forbidden. NGO means non governmental organisation, and they have their own language, which is like it's created to keep people out. Because they are doing so much money in that business. Sorry, I'm just joking. I'm just joking anyway. But they have a language that is very internal, and doesn't really travel well. So don't go Don't go there.

Leilani Farha  10:24  
So the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was it's really old, it's from 1948, it comes out of World War Two. And a recognition that we needed to at that time, assert that there is this thing called the human family, and that what binds us all together, is our mutual dignity. And it was an assertion that certain things are required for the human family to live in a kind of peaceful way and in an in with dignity. And one of the things that gets mentioned in it is that everyone should have the right to an adequate standard of living, which would include the right to adequate housing. So that's the very first time it gets iterated at that international level.

Fredrik Gertten  11:22  
I mean, if you told, let's say, Donald Trump or other people, they would call this is like, yeah, this is communism, you know.But I guess it was signed by?

Leilani Farha  11:34  
Yeah. So the Declaration was the world coming together. So it was many, many, many countries, but they didn't. That was a political commitment. It wasn't a legal commitment. After 1948, in the 60s, they, the the international community started to write treaties that governments would sign and ratify, and make that legal commitment. So the main one for housing is called Are you ready? It's long.

Fredrik Gertten  12:01  
Oh, my God.

Leilani Farha  12:02  
Yeah. The International Covenant on Economic, social, and cultural rights.

Fredrik Gertten  12:11  
That's a complicated one.

Leilani Farha  12:12  
Now, you know why we use short forms in the NGO world? 

Fredrik Gertten  12:15  
What is covenants?

Leilani Farha  12:16  
Yeah, so a covenant you can just play replace that word with treaty. So it's just like a treaty? Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten  12:21  
International treaty of what?

Leilani Farha  12:23  
Economic, social and cultural rights. So it includes housing, but it includes a lot more like health education. Now we read into it water, food, employment and labour standards and rights. So yeah, that's the go to.

Fredrik Gertten  12:43  
So but then all governments in the world signed on

Leilani Farha  12:48  
not all know, many, more than I don't know. 170 or something like that. But who didn't didn't? Quess! Biggest country that didn't?

Fredrik Gertten  13:00  
You think?China?

Leilani Farha  13:03  
No. China did.

Fredrik Gertten  13:07  
Soviet Union?

Leilani Farha  13:09  
I think Russia did.

Fredrik Gertten  13:13  
India, India

Leilani Farha  13:15  
definitely did.

Fredrik Gertten  13:17  
Haha. So what's more Greenland? No, that's like it belongs  to Denmark. Yeah. Denmark. Denmark. Sweden did! Sweden did okay. 

Leilani Farha  13:26  
A countrythat considers itself the leader of the free world.

Fredrik Gertten  13:29  
Oh, Canada.That's your country. So why didn't you sign?

Leilani Farha  13:35  
No, no. Canada signed. The United States didn't say what Yeah, the United States hasn't signed, hasn't ratified the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. Crazy.

Fredrik Gertten  13:46  
Not even under Clinton and Obama or you know,

Leilani Farha  13:49  
correct. AOC. Congresswoman who's very progressive many of the listeners,

Fredrik Gertten  13:56  
Alexandra Cortez, correct. from the Bronx. Yeah, correct.

Leilani Farha  14:01  
She has been pushing that the United States really embraced social and economic rights. And that would include ratifying that International Covenant. So

Fredrik Gertten  14:11  
from the 60s

Leilani Farha  14:13  
Yeah, from the 60s. I think in Canada, we ratified it in 75. I don't know when it became available for ratification maybe in the 70s. So I think we were one of the Canada was one of the first to ratify it if I if I correct that.

Fredrik Gertten  14:26  
You mean before Sweden.

Leilani Farha  14:29  
Oh, I'll have to look that up.

Fredrik Gertten  14:34  
But and the Brits. Mm hmm.

Leilani Farha  14:37  
Yep. The UK has has signed and ratified as well.

Fredrik Gertten  14:41  
Great. So you can all be proud you. Commonwealth countries, you poor Brits.What a mess in North Korea. We don't know 

Leilani Farha  14:51  
South Korea certainly has because I visited there. I'd have to check. You know, I don't know

Fredrik Gertten  14:57  
then the point is that most governments kind of forgotten that they sign it. So it doesn't really make any big difference. Because also, in your country I've been, I've been walking the streets of Toronto many times, and seeing an insane amount of people sleeping rough.

Leilani Farha  15:14  
Yeah. So there's a huge gap. There's a huge gap between what we know to be the standards that are international human rights law and what happens on the ground and countries around the world. That's definitely I mean, in our lingo, we call it the implementation gap, a gap in implementation,

Fredrik Gertten  15:33  
who is then responsible for this implementation gap? Did i pronounce that right?

Leilani Farha  15:40  
you did implementation. Okay, good. I'm expanding your English. Um.

Fredrik Gertten  15:46  
I'm swedishyou know, yeah,

Leilani Farha  15:51  
One should never feel sorry for sweeds, you've got it good, you've got it good, mostly. So governments are responsible for implementing the right to housing. And that's what I love about international human rights laws super clear. Governments are accountable to people. That's it. And it doesn't mean other actors don't have human rights obligations. But governments are responsible for making sure those other actors who might I be thinking of thing people like or entities like Blackstone, governments have to make sure that anyone engaged in the area of housing for people

Fredrik Gertten  16:28  
For people who haven't listened before. Blackstone is the world's biggest private equity fund. So they are like, basically, a monster with too much money.

Leilani Farha  16:37  
That's right. And they are very front and centre in the housing and real estate sector. So governments have to do what's neccesary. 

Fredrik Gertten  16:47  
Yeah. And they are shaking the world. That's right, by pushing up the rents for people who don't make more money now than before, but they have to pay more bigger chunk of their small salary to people who already have too much.

Leilani Farha  17:04  
That's right. Yeah. And so governments should be doing something about that, because governments have that responsibility to implement the right to housing. 

So does this Does this mean that the government have to provide a house to everyone? No. Okay. There is this. I've, I've read in a newspaper, there is Canadian UN lady says, there is a there is a right to housing. So come on, give me a house. Can you do that to your government?

Yeah. So when I went to India, right country of what 1.3 billion people, one of the second largest country in the world soon, maybe to be the largest country in the world. That is exactly what they were asking me laughing like, seriously, you think that that that this is cool that people can just ask us, we got a big country, we're not that wealthy, etc. So no, that's in fact, not exactly what the right to housing means. And that's going to disappoint some people. It doesn't mean you can just let homelessness go. And let lets you know, thousands and millions of people be homeless, there's, you know, probably 150 million people worldwide who are homeless. So that's not cool. And under the right to housing, governments have to do something about that quickly. And they have to take immediate steps to address homelessness. So in that way, I suppose people living in homelessness can be demanding something more than what they have. But it doesn't mean that everyone can just, you know, oh, you know, my apartments kind of a little too small for me. I'm going to go knock on the government door and demand a house and I'll get it under the right to housing. That's not how it works. We have this notion that's really another ugly word. But we talked about that it can happen progressively over time. Governments have to be taking steps but they have to be taking steps. They can sit back, drink coffee, put their feet up and eat croissants. They have to actually take steps all the time to make housing better for people who need better housing. 

Fredrik Gertten  19:16  
Hmm,now I remember a lunch in Copenhagen. Oh, the the Canadian Embassy invited you and me to lunch around the premiere of of push inCopenhagen? Yeah. And they also invited a lot of Danish real estate business, including Blackstone, which meant that  there was one place empty around the table. Because they didn't come. I don't wonder why didn't come they had said yes. But then I guess then they have read a newspaper the same day or something. Yeah. So we're not allowed to come from the New York set. No, no, don't go. But then there was a guy sitting beside you. Yeah, but is it a human right to demand an apartment in the middle of Copenhagen?And you looked a little bit tired.When I guess that's something you hear over and over again.

Leilani Farha  20:15  
Yeah, and it's, it's, it's a little more complicated than that. So the first thing to say is that when someone is living in an apartment, or a rental of some sort, in a city, where they want to be living, and it's close to their work, and their family and their favourite cafe and all of that, they, they should be entitled to stay there, yes, under international human rights law. And by that, I mean, you can't just like be raising their rents and make it impossible for them to live there. That's not cool. And that's not compliant with the right to housing.

Fredrik Gertten  20:49  
That goes against the security and safety.

Leilani Farha  20:53  
Exactly. One of the key things that we say about housing, under human rights laws, that it has to be affordable, and that that's actually a human rights standard, that it has to be affordable and affordable is not, we don't measure it based on what can the market bear, you base it on what a household can afford. And mostly people say, you know, you shouldn't spend more than 30% of your income on rent or housing payments. And so affordability is really key alongside that security, you have to view them together. So that's that's how I if I recall, I was probably not quite as gentle with the fellow sitting beside me at that lunch. I remember it was such a beautiful lunch. It was such a beautiful room, and he was kind of ruining it with his questions. But anyway, that's part of it. The other part is, well, you know how society works. Most jobs are in cities, one's ability to make a living and provide for a family and all of that happens in cities. And so people go to cities because they need to be employed. So in that way, if if that's the only option for people, then of course, you do have to make cities affordable for people like you can't assume, oh, well, people if you can't afford to live in the city don't live in the city. Well, wait a second.

Fredrik Gertten  22:15  
But on the other hand, I mean, if we look at Copenhagen today, for example, yeah, there is no human right to say I have the right to get a flat in the middle of town. There is not? No, no. But then you could say I live in the centre of Copenhagen, and you don't have the right to kick me out. So that's kind of the there is some kind of protection in that.

Leilani Farha  22:37  
That's right, exactly.

Fredrik Gertten  22:40  
Because what we see in push, we see we see it in, in in Kensington in London, for example, where and Notting Hill where the old community has built a culture of, of Notting Hill the carneval and everything, they're all being pushed away. That's right. And when you talk about London, when you're pushed away, you pushed one or two hours, train ride away. And if you still have family in your community, you get it's a very strong separation from your grandparents or parents or, you know, friends and family. So it's, it's a tough thing.

Leilani Farha  23:17  
You know, what Fredrik, I want to, I want to push us a little bit further, and we both like push. So I'm going to push us further. I don't think it's cool in terms of human rights, to create cities that exclude certain groups of people. So while I can't say you have the right to demand an apartment in the centre of Copenhagen, or Amsterdam, or wherever, Barcelona, I do think it's contrary to human rights, to allow cities to develop in a way that excludes entire groups of people, low income people, young people, migrants and refugees, right. And so, and there is a way that financialization for example is creating cities that are impossible for people, though those groups of people for example, to live in people with disabilities as well, all anyone with low income or lower income and would find it difficult to find a place in a city to live that they can afford. And that's problematic. And and I think we do have to put that in the basket of human rights concern. Who wants to live in cities that aren't diverse, first of all,

Fredrik Gertten  24:35  
right? No, I live in a very diverse neighbourhood and exactly and I love the energy of that of course comes sometimes with a lot of problems, but it's, but I love the I love it. I still love it a lot. Mm hmm. Special Rapporteur on adequate housing. There are so many boring words in your in your world. I mean, how can you even bare be you you use These words all the time. Don't you get bored to death? Adequate. What is what is adequate? I mean, can you can you put? Let's see, we're doing a James Bond film, let's put out adequite in a title of James Bond. James Bond adequate,

Leilani Farha  25:21  
then no, no one's going to see that film. No. Okay, let's not put it in the title, but I can tell you what adequate is and you're right there. I mean, this is not sexy stuff. And part of my job both as rapporteur and now as global director of the shift is to make this stuff meaningful and interesting. And I admit it's not always easy. And sometimes I have to find funny friends and colleagues who can make it more interesting.

Fredrik Gertten  25:52  
I'm your funny friend or my funny friend, and you are my advocate, or my Okay, that special, special advocate. Okay, so

Leilani Farha  25:59  
What makes housing adequate. 

Fredrik Gertten  26:02  
What is that? Okay, what is what is it? Yeah,

Leilani Farha  26:04  
and adequate is defined as with the following characteristics, you don't have adequate housing, if you don't have security, we already talked about that. You don't have adequate housing, if your housing is unaffordable, and increasingly unaffordable. But there's also basic things like for, you know, think about people in the global south, in particular, many, many people living in informal settlements, that's where they can't afford the formal market. They can't afford a formal apartment or to buy a house. And so they create their own communities, some of the most amazing communities I've been to, in fact, vibrant and just incredible and very well organised. And, but often informal settlements are denied by governments, basic services, water, sanitation, electricity. I mean, it's just amazing in the age of cell phones, you can imagine how important I mean not just because you need light, but you also need power to generate these cell phones, etc. So, services 

Fredrik Gertten  27:06  
I've been to many informal settlements around the world in my life.

Leilani Farha  27:11  
Do you remember the one we went to in I think it was, was it in Valparaiso one somewhere in Chile, and it was made the homes were amazing. I went I remember walking into one home, and the family had put in place these incredible tiles and I mean, it was

Fredrik Gertten  27:33  
it was just a neighbour town of Valparaiso. It was Vina Del Mar, that's the hills, right.

Leilani Farha  27:38  
Yeah. It was so amazing.

Fredrik Gertten  27:40  
It's very interesting, because Chile is the people living in in settlement settlements are so well organised. Absolutely. In every little part of the neighbourhood. They had their own committees that had their own cultural house. They were electing a president of the community of, I don't know, 20 families or more, but I mean, it was and they were like, talking to the city. We need some pavement here so we can we don't get stuck when it rains. And it was like it was it's it's impressive and not you know, now during COVID in Chile, these communities are organising, they cook together, right? Yeah, they cook together. Because it they're under so much pressure, because you know, all these people are part of the informal economy. Yeah, they're not allowed to leave home. So they can't make any money at all. So in order to survive, now they're cooking together, and trying to make it's so it's nice. It's very strong.

Leilani Farha  28:41  
Yeah, and I've heard the same in Brazil, that some of the informal settlements that are very intact. I mean, the barrios in in, in Brazil are very well developed. And they're doing amazing things, providing their own health care services, as you say, sharing food, just amazing. But what what's happening with so many informal settlements, is they're there because they're informal. And by that it means often they're set up on public lands. So the people often don't own the land where they set up their homes and governments move to evict them. And for that's what we call forced eviction. It's one of the biggest violations of the right to housing is happening, like, you know, every minute of every day a community is threatened with forced eviction. And that also contravenes the right to housing under international human rights law.

Fredrik Gertten  29:39  
Okay. So hashtag, get your housing right.

Leilani Farha  29:45  
Hashtag get your housing, right.

Fredrik Gertten  29:47  
Hashtag get your housing. Right. So that is the campaign of the UN habitat that is ongoing right now, I think right? Yep.

Leilani Farha  29:56  
And I think until it runs until November 8, but of course It can run forever.

Fredrik Gertten  30:01  
It can run forever and  UN habitat have their main headquarter in Nairobi. Is it and Kenya?

Leilani Farha  30:08  
That's right. And then they have presence in New York as well.

Fredrik Gertten  30:11  
Yeah, really wish them good luck with their work and, and I hope that UN habitat friends out there, we'll also spread the pushback talks and and help you get to see push because it's easy. You just go to pushthefilm.com. And if you want to show the film for communities or special screenings or, you know, in groups on zoom, and so on, talk to us and we can help you to to organise screenings, it's all possible.

Leilani Farha  30:44  
Is it? Is it that you can download it in Africa and Asia? Now? The film push?

Fredrik Gertten  30:50  
Of course, yeah, it's been 40. It's Yeah, right, right. Now, push the film can be seen all over the world. It's on Vimeo, by a pushthefilm.com. And in the US with a special other provider, but then go to the same webpage there will you can read about how to get a film in the US great. Oh, of course, I'm the filmmaker. But it's the whole idea is to, to make a film that works as a tool to, to conversation.

Leilani Farha  31:24  
Yeah. And it's been happening all over the world that films been screened. And Fredrik and I Well, you know, we've done a million panels, but community groups are using it and doing their own actions around the film. There's a big meeting in Europe happening where actually they were using pushback talks, to set the tone of the of the convening housing and homelessness groups from Europe. So I think it's an amazing tool. I hope people will use it.

Fredrik Gertten  31:52  
It's cool. And now we've been talking about like, in a very simple way. You been trying to explain your language? Do you feel that you've given us all? Or do you...

Leilani Farha  32:04  
Its a taste, There's so much to say. I mean, there is a global housing crisis. And there's so many manifestations of violations of the right to housing and every country around the world. north south, west east.

Fredrik Gertten  32:22  
Sounds depressing, depressing,

Leilani Farha  32:25  
it is depressing. So we're still hope you know where the hope is. And we still need to do a podcast on this. I'm seeing so much uprising of tenants and people living in homelessness, claiming their human rights and really using that language. Now, it's becoming very common to see, you know, community group, grassroots movement, fighting against being driven out of their cities driven out of their homes and and saying, Hey, we have a human right to housing.

Fredrik Gertten  32:54  
And what about governments and cities? Are they are they all hopeless? There is some inspirational people out there? 

Leilani Farha  33:03  
Absolutely. And of course I am. You know, I draw inspiration from so many cities in particular around the world. And mayor's really leading the charge. I think the mayor of malama, where you are, Frederick is very engaged with the right to housing, and she's got a lot at her doorstep to deal with. In Canada, lots of mayors have started to really try to figure out what does it mean to do the right to housing at the local level. mayor's in Asia are starting to come on board. So I'm seeing that national governments as well, adopting legislation, which is exactly what they should do incorporating the right to housing. So there's movement, there's always a little optimism out there.

Fredrik Gertten  33:45  
Good. Because we are not boring pessimists, we still think that we can change the world. And we can make the world a better place and we can all sing together. We can say Kumbaya, my friend. Isn't that who we are. We are the good people.

Leilani Farha  34:09  
I'm not touching that.

Fredrik Gertten  34:10  
No, no. Okay.

Leilani Farha  34:12  
Kumbaya Fredrik, come on. We're gonna bore our listeners.

Fredrik Gertten  34:17  
Okay, nothing, nothing.

Leilani Farha  34:19  
I have a question. I have a question. Okay. Yeah. Are we doing in terms of our patrons

Fredrik Gertten  34:25  
Patreon, the patrons. Patreon is a website where you can support podcasts and, and we have now a small number of friends donating every month to push back talks. Andit's not enough to pay for any of our costs yet. But if we could like get 10 times more, it will be a big difference. And I think, you know, we actually got this week two new download countries because I'm a little bit obsessed by that. So we are now we are now in, we now have listeners in 89 countries. 89 Can you imagine? 

Leilani Farha  35:18  
89 That's impressive , I think that's impressive.

Fredrik Gertten  35:21  
I wonder who will be number 90.

Leilani Farha  35:23  
So who was 89

Fredrik Gertten  35:25  
I think it was Panama. And before that is was Iran

Leilani Farha  35:29  
Very nice. 

Fredrik Gertten  35:30  
it's but it's like also Somalia or Algeria or. So it's, it's inspiring. I know it's not in the, you are not huge audience but but we have people in many countries listening to the push back talks, and I think the only way to, to grow your audience is of course, our job to keep talking. But it's also you out there to tell your friends and and tweet about it or Facebook about it tell you and you go to go to our website pushthefilm.com there are tools, there are small videos that you can share if you want to. So there are different ways to to help us and of course, to be to be a patron is a very concrete way. Or if you are a member of some of an NGO that really wants us to, to survive. Talk to us and we can find a way to send you an invoice. Might not happen. But I mean, if you're sitting on some kind of money, we have a desperate need. So Miss special.

Leilani Farha  35:42  
Yes, Dr. Gertten. We can talk about why I call you Dr. Gertten some other time.

Fredrik Gertten  36:47  
Yes, Miss Miss special,  think it's it's time to say goodbye. and wish you happy dog walking?

Leilani Farha  36:58  
Oh, I thought you were gonna wish me a happy garbage day.

Fredrik Gertten  37:01  
Okay. Happy also happy garbage day. And I will I think I will go back home and then I will wait for my my football team to come up Malmö and I will give you some energy that will give you some energy and then and then we will be proud to to meet again.

Leilani Farha  37:23  
We will meet again but I hope you're feeling better next week.

Fredrik Gertten  37:26  
Yeah, I will do my best. And be good. Ciao ciao.

Mikey Jones  37:37  
Push back. tox is produced by bg. support us by becoming a [email protected]/pushbacktalks thank you so much for listening. And we'll see you again next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai