PUSHBACK Talks

Bikes vs Cars: The Transformation of Paris - With Paris deputy Mayor Christophe Najdovski

• WG Film • Season 8 • Episode 8

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Cities are the frontline of our global challenges – from climate change to housing crises. In this powerful episode of Pushback Talks, Deputy Mayor of Paris Christophe Najdovski reveals how progressive urban leadership can transform cities into resilient, livable ecosystems. From challenging powerful car lobbies to reimagining urban spaces, Najdovski and Mayor Anne Hidalgo are pioneering a radical approach that proves environmental action and social justice can go hand in hand. Hear how Paris is fighting populism, creating climate-adaptive infrastructure, and offering a blueprint for urban transformation that could reshape cities worldwide. As the global urban population continues to grow, this conversation offers a beacon of hope and practical inspiration for building the cities of our future.

Learn more about Paris's climate strategy.

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Kirsten McRae:

We've talked a lot about transforming our cities for the better on Pushback talks. After all, cities are growing rapidly. It's projected that by 2052 out of every three people on earth will live in an urban area. Not only that, cities are uniquely well placed for the service provision so desperately needed to end the global housing and climate crises, but in an era where cities are battlegrounds for profit, development, human rights, democracy, sustainability and so much more, what does true urban transformation look like beyond the concrete and steel? How do we reimagine our cities as living, breathing ecosystems that protect both people and the planet. Today, we're diving deep with Christoph nadavsky. Paris is Deputy Mayor and a key architect of an urban vision that's challenging powerful lobbies, confronting climate guts and proving that progressive city leadership can be a powerful antidote to rising populism. Since 2014 deputy mayor, nadavsky has been the key driver of many of the city's environmental policies, ones that stand to help Paris become one of the most climate resilient cities on earth, from pedestrianizing The Seine to taking on the SUV lobby, from energy efficient social housing to creating more livable urban spaces, nadavsky and Mayor Anne Hidalgo have been pioneering A model of city governance that refuses to compromise on environmental action. Join us as we explore how Paris is becoming a global blueprint for urban resilience, a city that's not just adapting to future challenges, but actively reshaping what's possible when communities, politics and vision align.

Fredrik Gertten:

I'm Fredrik Gertten, and I'm the filmmaker,

Leilani Farha:

and I'm Leilani Farha, and I'm the advocate,

Fredrik Gertten:

and this is Pushback talks, and Leilani, since we talked the last time there's been an election in your neighbor country, the whole world is talking about it. But I don't know, should we be very depressed this Trump?

Leilani Farha:

Well, depressed, worried, anxious, all of the above. I

Fredrik Gertten:

think it's interesting, because I've seen on in the social media flow this kind of total darkness that people are so depressed. And I'm trying, you know, my last film breaking social was also trying to look into the light and the good things that are happening at the same time. So I think this time, we should go and talk about inspiration. And inspiration is not far you can really find it, because the majority of the people on the planet are living in big cities, and most of the big cities don't have Trumpist governments. They have progressive governments. So we are actually here online with the deputy mayor of Paris, Christophe najdovsky, who I got to know in, I don't know, eight years ago, nine years ago, when I premiered my film bike versus cars, and I actually I also got an award from the mayor. So welcome to push back talks deputy mayor Christophe nadovsky,

Christophe Najdovski:

thank you, and good afternoon or good morning.

Fredrik Gertten:

You have to keep track on the time limits when we talk about Trump and the right wings, what you have been doing in Paris is like represents everything that they hate. You know, you recently put up a plan to block traffic to run through Paris. You're making the city 100% cycle. And you were for a long time responsible for the bicycle at the transportation of Paris, and you closed the highways down the Seine, I mean that they were running down in the historic part of the city we met. You said, no, no, there was floodings and you stopped the car lanes. Whatever you've been doing is what they hate so. But it seems since the Olympic the Paris story has been coming out as a big success story, and you've been a big part of that. So how do you see your position now in Paris?

Christophe Najdovski:

Yes, of course, the second election of Trump is a big shock for all of us, and we do not forget that when he was selected for the first time in 2016 one of the first things he did was to give up the Paris Agreement, which was signed one year before in 2015 in Paris about tackling and fighting the climate change. So it's a big shock for all of us to see that once again, he's elected, and that also the populism has raised. If we are looking back to the situation we we knew 10 years ago when we were elected for the first time in Paris. The fact is that today, we are in a significant different world that we were 10 years ago. And the fact is that the populism has raised all over the country is not just in the. USA, but also in Europe. And the far right is raising everywhere, and fake news and the populism are also pushed by these people, so it's a big threat on our democracies today. So we are living also with this new situation. I would say it wasn't the case when we were elected for the first time 10 years ago.

Fredrik Gertten:

No, my point is that the cities like Paris and London and many other cities are like taking the lead. More people live in cities than live in the countryside. In some way, there is a heavier load on you now to take care of the planet and to make this more progressive direction of the cities. I had noted that you're the mayor of Paris, and Hidalgo is now on the time hundreds list as most influential taking on action on climate so it's what you do in Paris. It's noted in a big way,

Christophe Najdovski:

yes, and we know also that the cities are also today, yes, struggling against the populism and most of the cities are driven by progressive teams, and we have the chance also to have a woman like we have in Paris as mayor, because she has a vision about what should be the future of the city, but also she has a strong vision about the threats that are against our democracies, and I know that she's very sensitive about the fact that today, the cities are also a target for the far right and the Populists, and they are looking also to make The Cities their next position, and that they want also to to have the power in the cities. So we need to fight against this overall offensive of the far right and all the this, these people who are bringing fake news. The fact is also that our mayor had to face a big bashing about her mandate and what she's doing. And the fact is that today, yes, it's normal to have resistances to have opponents, but the fact is that if we are looking at the difference between the situation we had 10 years ago and today is the fact that some of our opponents do not hesitate to use fake news to get what they want, and the next election in 2026 will be their next target. So we need also to to be aware of that, because we are in a war, and it's a cultural war, and it's a war for preserving the democracy. I think that what happened once again in the USA and what is happening in Europe and all over the world is very, very, very threatening. And we are very anxious, also, yes about that, and

Fredrik Gertten:

you're totally right. But at the same time, what I see when I was recently in Mexico, and I met with all the bicyclists, and I said, What should we tell our mayor? And I said, tell your mayor to go to Paris, because Paris has understand you started in 2014 The city has totally changed. So I mean, the changes you have achieved in Paris are an inspiration to the whole world. And, of course, you have to protect your your successes, but it's also, it's very visible and that you, you managed to make city, the Paris a much more livable city, yes,

Christophe Najdovski:

and we have the chance to have the support from our citizens. The fact is that we have a strong support from them. And even during the last national elections in Paris, our candidates, the progressive candidates, had strong support from the Parisians. So we are not very frightened about the fact that in Paris the people are open to the world. They are open mind people. And yes, we, we continue to have the support from the from the citizens. So we also continue to try to implement our local policies in the way of more social justice and more also transition to what a sustainable city. Of course, the citizens are really a strong support for that. So it is important to have this support. Leilani,

Fredrik Gertten:

you are in Canada. So how do you see Paris from that distance?

Leilani Farha:

Well, there's lots to say, based on what's already been said, the idea around Fake news is really interesting, and its impact on cities and this growing divide between national level governments or regional governments. And city based governments that are trying to do more progressive things. I'm interested in Paris. Of course, all eyes were on Paris during the Olympics for a variety of reasons, but I've been interested in Paris and the developments for some time. In particular, I'm really interested when mayors and deputy mayors seem to have a vision, and then they bring that vision to their cities, they enact laws and policies, and then move forward on that vision. And I think when Paris was really moving in the direction of being greener and more social justice minded, there was some discomfort, we'll say, right not everyone bought in right away. So I'm interested if you can talk about the process of, like, the vision, and then how you made it actually happen. And what did you do when people were grumbling? Did you change your policies. Did you just steamroll ahead?

Christophe Najdovski:

Oh, you know, Parisians are always grumbling. So it's a it's a basic behavior here in Paris. And of course, when you put and you bring some changes, of course, you will always have some resistances, but you have also the silent majority. And the fact is that when the people are taking the benefit of the new infrastructures we are bringing, they do not want to come back to the to the former situation. And of course, when we pedestrianized the banks of the River Seine in 2016 of course, there were some resistances. And the car drivers were saying, Oh, how will I drive? Now? In Paris, it's it's impossible to drive and now no one would like to come back to the situation we had before you can duplicate this example of a lot of other examples. When we are also removing the space for cars and planting trees, you will always have people saying, Oh, well, where will I park my car? But after that, if you ask them one year or two years after the tree was planted, they say, yes, I forgot. What was the situation before? And it's, it's wonderful to see how my my street was transformed, and how it is beautiful, also for the for the landscape and for the quality of life. So you will always have people who are not satisfied for the first time, yes, but after, when you have done it, you have a strong support and a strong majority of people who are yes, in favor of what we are doing. And this is the reason why, also, our mayor was re elected in 2020 even despite of the bashing she had to face. Yeah. And

Fredrik Gertten:

one of the big struggles in Paris that, I mean, the opposition you had was really well organized and well funded because you wanted to ban, you banned diesel cars in Paris, and then you had a diesel lobby. The car lobby was attacking the mayor and the city, and in the end, you you won, even with that lobby against you. So you, in some way, Paris has been taking on one of these big powers that are in some way ruling the world, so that's kind of It's brave. A lot of cities don't have that the guts to take on the lobby in the way you did. Now I see on your you are making it more expensive to park SUV, a super big car in Paris and and you're now blocking traffic that is crossing Paris with that will take down the traffic with 30% in the city, which is radical, and it's it's cool, but, I mean, can you still feel this opposition? Is the lobby as active?

Christophe Najdovski:

Yes, of course it is active. And the lobbies are more active than ever. You know, the capitalism is more active than it was ever, I would say. But the fact is also that the will of the citizens is also to have livable cities. And what you're saying about the SUVs is very interesting, because we brought a very radical proposal to increase by three the price of the parking for the SUVs. And we decided not just to vote it in the in the city council, but to ask the citizens. Of Paris, what they were thinking about this decision and this action. So we organized a vote, and we had more than 80,000 citizens who voted, and 55% of them voted in favor of having an increase of the of the price of the SUVs. So because they are they are aware of the threat that it, it is representing today in our cities. It is a threat for the for the children and also for the for the old persons, for their for their safety in the streets. It takes a lot of space, and we do not have enough space in our streets to have this kind of vehicles. So we had a very interesting debate, and the fact is that our opponents did not take a position about this referendum. They were not saying they were in favor. And the fact is that we had the strong support from the citizens, even in some sectors in which we have our opponents, where they have the majority, we had the majority of the voters who say the yes, we do not want to have more and more SUVs. So also, when you are giving the voice to the citizens, it is interesting to see what they have to say. And the fact is that even with this very radical proposal, we had significant support from the Parisians to take that decision. It's really

Fredrik Gertten:

inspirational. Leilani, remember when we were out meeting audiences around the world with push, we talked very much about, we want a green city. We want a sustainable city, but a sustainable city also need to be socially sustainable. Leilani,

Leilani Farha:

absolutely, and there's a there's a couple of things. There's a way in which sometimes this movement of Going green is perceived as elitist and only benefiting, you know, those who have a high income. And you know, I visited, of course, I've been in France when I was un rapporteur. I visited France on an official visit. I went out to the suburbs, where there's a lot of racialized communities living with high levels of poverty, and I think maybe for them, being able to bike or not drive into the city with an SUV is less of a concern than having decent, affordable housing, good jobs, access to education, etc. So I just wonder if that debate comes up in your work. Christophe,

Christophe Najdovski:

yes, and we always have this kind of debate between the inner city and the suburbs, and the fact that when you are taking decisions for the people who are living in the center of the city, it can have some bad consequences for the people living in the suburbs. If we are talking about the mobility for example, we must say that the people who are living in the suburbs are heavily using the mass transportation system, the public transportation system, and not driving SUVs. The fact is that the people who are using massively SUVs are the richest people and not the poorest. And so we need first to improve the network of busses, trams, metros. So that is what we are doing, of course, by investing a lot of money in those networks. And the fact is also that the poorest people are those who are also facing the consequences of the climate change. They don't have the possibility to go in another place when we are facing flooding or heat waves, so we are working for them also to keep our cities livable by investing a lot, for example, in improving the housing and the buildings, for example. But we must try also not to enter in that debate. Of you should not do nothing, because it can have consequences for the people. And of course, that we are always trying to keep in mind, what are the social aspects of our policies and the social consequences of our policies? Yeah,

Leilani Farha:

and they're not mutually exclusive. You can do things that are very good for the environment and make the city more livable, while also ensuring social justice and ensuring that those who are more disadvantaged have a good life as well. It's not either or, and I just will say that I was reading about the renovations you're doing for social housing to make them more energy efficient. One of the most obviously important things, because as people may or may not know, housing is a huge contributor to climate change, to greenhouse gas emissions, both in terms of building new housing and the operating of housing. And so I have a question for you around that making social housing more energy efficient? Are you able to do it in a way that doesn't raise the cost of housing for the inhabitants, for the dwellers? And I ask you this because this is going to be an issue all across Europe, right? And what we don't want to see is rising costs for the tenants.

Christophe Najdovski:

Yes, in 20 years, Iris has massively invested in building new social housing. We had about 12% of the buildings and of the dwellers who were living in social housing by the beginning of this century, so 20 years ago, and now we have 25% of the people. And we know that several studies are telling us that it helped us to maintain the population in a city, if not, we were in the same situation as New York City and Manhattan, which is just empty of dwellers. So by investing massively in social housing in 20 years, we maintained the citizens, and we also maintained a social mixed city in the inner city. When you are coming to Paris, you can see all kind of people. Of course, we also are facing the rise of the prices, yes, of course, and the costs also, but the municipality and the public decision makers can take decisions to try to tackle the speculation and the gentrification of the cities, and this is an example of what we are trying to do by investing a lot in social housing so we kept the Citizens and the social mixity in the in the city. And secondly, now we are massively investing in the in the energy efficiency of these these buildings, to cut also the costs for the for the inhabitants, and to reduce, of course, their their energy bills to keep also this population in our city. So it is very important, of course, to invest a lot. So it is also a priority of our municipality. And the fact is that the deputy mayor who is in charge of this question is coming from the Communist Party, so they are very also, how can I say that? They are very Yes, aware and committed to that goal, to keep also this kind of population in the in the city, in many

Fredrik Gertten:

European cities right now, in Spain, Italy and so on, there are big protests against touristification. And I mean, Paris is it's like one of the most beautiful cities in the world. Tourists is a big factor in your town also. And the touristification gets complicated when you have all these like the Airbnbs and this kind of short term rental platforms. Have you found a way to handle that?

Christophe Najdovski:

Yes, we are facing the same situation, like all the Metro policies, about the fact that the market is not enough, regulated, also the tourist sector is not enough regulated. We all are facing the fact that Airbnb is reducing the number of housings available for the for the people, because some people are preferring having Airbnb incomes from Airbnb instead of hiring the their their flat and their home to to the people. So we need to have a regulation by the cities. And we need also that the states give to the cities the possibilities to regulate the market. And that works also for the tourism, because if not, we will be overwhelmed by the tourism, like some cities are Barcelona, for example, and we have the same situation in Paris, and the fact is that without these regulations, most of the people will not be in the position to afford they cannot afford to continue to live in our proper city. So it is also one of the main consequences of non deregulated market, and the fact that the capitalism today is not enough regulated by the states and also by the local governments. I was

Fredrik Gertten:

thinking about when we did bike versus cars and then push I could see in on, sometimes paintings on walls in outside San Francisco. Or bike lanes, or white lanes, and there was a slogan, and some other community said it's green enough. We don't want a park here, because if you build a park, we will be pushed out. So I mean, maybe you have the same risk. You are now responsible for making Paris a greener and more sustainable city, is that a risk, when you make a suburb that has been tough and harsh, if you make it greener and more livable, that in the end, the Airbnbs will also enter there and kick people out? Yes, it's

Christophe Najdovski:

a big issue. And of course, we do not have alone? The answer, of course, when we when you are improving the environment of the surroundings of the people where they are living, there is a risk about the fact that the price of housing will raise and that you will have a gentrification of the suburbs. So it's always a risk. So we need to try to invent also an urban development and a social development without having that consequences. And I think that the regulation by the municipality is one of the answers that we can have if you give to the municipalities the possibility to build to have enough social housing, then you will face also, and you will have an answer to that question. But if you don't have any regulation, of course, it will be a risk, and it can also be yes, you can eject some people and push them far from the city because they won't have the possibility to live there anymore. So it's a risk. Yes, I must admit that, and so we need to have it in mind when we are implementing our policies. We need to have also an overall view about what is a local policy. It's not just about thinking just about the mobility policy. We should think the mobility policy in an overall view of what is living in the city, and not just how we can move from a point A to a point B, even with bike lanes, yeah,

Leilani Farha:

yeah. I mean, it's the approach that my organization takes around these city level issues, is that if we adopt human rights focus, social justice focus, then we end up with a more holistic approach to all the policies. So when you're doing transportation, or when you're doing retrofitting, it's all part of one big mission, and the mission is to create an overall happier society all people experiencing well being. So it then necessitates, as you said, Christophe, putting in the protections and the regulations, so that when you make the changes, you're understanding Well, the reason we're doing this is for everyone, not just for this group of people who can afford it, or, you know, who will most enjoy it, perceptions of who will most enjoy it. And I think about that with Airbnb. I mean, Paris has one of the largest networks of Airbnb in the world. Actually, I think I've read different statistics, like 60,000 or 75,000 listings. And of course, you've tried to control it, limiting 120 days, I think is the regulation, something like that. But then the problem is enforcing it. And then the problem also becomes, did Airbnb get ahead of the policies that you're trying and the mayor is trying to introduce, you know, like, did they not work in concert, right? And then the question is, how do you bring it back? How do you control for it once it's already out the gate.

Christophe Najdovski:

Yes, the municipalities sometimes they do not have the answers to some questions, so they need to be also in a coalition with other municipalities and try also to break some regulation at the national level. So if we are talking about Airbnb, for example, the fact is that Paris is a progressive city, and we are facing this issue and this question. But there are also other cities who are just by the sea, for example, and with some conservative mayors, but they are facing the same problem, and they are aware today that they need, also at their level, to make some coalitions with cities like Paris, to have and to get regulation at a national level. And that's what we did. So there is a law that will be voted now in the parliament because we had that. Coalition with other municipalities to bring that regulation. So it is an answer, but the fact is that we are not fighting at the same scale. So Airbnb is present worldwide. They are benefiting from the absence of regulation in lot of countries, and one of the answer is to try to also build these kind of coalitions to bring some solutions to the citizens. But it takes a lot of time. It took us maybe four or five years to bring that low end, to get that law and to break the regulation, and during all the this time, the fact is that excluded a lot of people from the city.

Fredrik Gertten:

What is the new regulation? The new law coming up?

Christophe Najdovski:

I know that some cities will have the possibility to reduce to, I think, 90 days, the possibility to use Airbnb I forgot. I'm sorry. I cannot tell you, but yes, it has just been voted, maybe just a few days ago, so I'm not sure about all the technical disposals.

Fredrik Gertten:

I remember, I visited a friend in Monterey just outside the road, and she was living with her family in a very, very small house. And across the street there was a house that was empty, and it was empty because it was Airbnb. The days that they could have, was it 120 or 180 days and the rest they just left it empty?

Christophe Najdovski:

Yes. And we are facing also the fact that we have a lot of secondary residences, and they are empty. Most of the days, this housing cannot benefit to the to the local people because of the fact that some owners prefer to have an empty house instead of hiring it to local people. So it is also a problem, and this is also a need to have a regulation at a national level, which takes a lot a lot a lot of time. Yeah, we've

Fredrik Gertten:

been doing this podcast for four years now. We talked to mayors in other cities, and they are all asking for a national legislation. We talked to the Deputy Mayor of London about the same things, and also in Bologna. So we we can see this. And of course, this is when the populist right is winning the national elections. It will be very hard to change the legislation, so we need the cities to fight back, and you do it quite well. Leilani, I also

Leilani Farha:

like Christophe idea, or the potential around coalitions of cities, but where the coalition really intends to do something, not just sit around and talk, but I think there will be strength when cities come together. Obviously, we see internationally, cities coming together, but I think nationally, it doesn't happen as often as one might think. To really push national government to accept what cities are saying that they are on the front lines of all of the crises of the world, right? Whether it's a housing crisis, a climate crisis, it's cities that are struggling. And so I see great potential in coalition building between cities, not always easy, of course, but across political and party lines. But I think that's how national governments will be confronted. You know, when the cities come together? Yes,

Christophe Najdovski:

I totally agree. I just wanted also to come back to what you were telling me before about some bike lanes that are white lanes, because if you are thinking about a local policy just in itself, at not in a holistic and overall view, it can, of course, bring that result. And the fact is that when we are implementing new infrastructures for biking, we are also trying to develop a culture of biking for all in an inclusive way. We have now several school bikes in some suburbs in which we are trying also to to bring the use of the bikes to some people and to people who are adults who forgot or do not know how to drive a bike. And we see that in some local communities, it brings a lot, because for those people, it brings also to them the autonomy that they could not have without knowing how to drive a bike. So it's, it's also, I would say. Policy of trying also to bring and emancipating people. So if we have the two pillars, I think that we are in the in the in the good way.

Fredrik Gertten:

I think, I mean, actually, I would recommend our listeners to go to Paris. But I don't know, you don't want to receive more people, but, but I mean, if you happen to go to Paris, get on a bicycle, and you can cross the whole city, it's an amazing city to go on bicycle. It's a and you will see the city from a whole new perspective. You can ride by the Seine, the river, it's it's amazing. And you will see the city in a new way, yeah, and then the main Rivoli, which is now like a highway for bicycles. It's such an inspiration. And if you are working politics in other cities around the world, go to Paris and study what they've been doing. Because for a long time, we've been talking about Amsterdam and Copenhagen, but I would say now Paris is even more interesting. A big city that is is making this extreme, radical change that you've been a part of, Christoph for now more than 10 years. Congratulations. Still. You should be proud for the change you've you achieved.

Leilani Farha:

Absolutely And this, I completely agree about the relationship between bikes and freedom. It's amazing. I mean, even for me, like I have a car here, but when I'm in another city and I can get on a bike and just go, there is that feeling of freedom. And for people who otherwise can't get around, or it's cheap and it's fast, and it's amazing,

Christophe Najdovski:

yes, and during the Olympics, we had a lot of people who came to Paris and they were driving a bike. It was very impressive to see all the all these people. Of course, we can think what we want about the Olympics. It's not the question, yeah, but, but the fact is that when we hosted the Olympics, we cut a lot of streets to the motorized traffic, always for pedestrians and bikes, and it was very pleasant to drive in Paris. So yes, I can invite you, if you were not in Paris these last months or years to come to Paris, but not all in this at the same moment.

Fredrik Gertten:

I'm not, not in Airbnb. Yeah, don't

Leilani Farha:

stay at Airbnb until the national law is passed.

Fredrik Gertten:

Leilani, you we talked about, actually, you sent me a note from your neighbor city, Toronto, that the governor of the province of Ontario is now he wants to take away bike lanes in in Toronto, the ones that his his brother also fought Rob Ford. So this is like, it's very interesting. Christophe, this that the right is all the time trying to win votes from frustrated motorists. Do you think this can go on forever, or is there a tipping point where you can't win any more votes? Are you getting there in Paris now that most people actually see that it's good for all, because it's strange, because in Berlin, the re election was won in an anti bicycle campaign, and now you have the same in Toronto. It's like, it's, it's extremely silly. It's easy to kind of kind of inflate some kind of hatred against people who are on bicycle. It's, it's weird.

Christophe Najdovski:

Oh yeah, you see that in in some cities the The opponents are using populism to fight against some decisions and try to come back to the former situation. The fact is that in Paris, we don't have that because we have the support from the citizens, and I was talking about the silent majority who is supporting our policy, and the fact is that our opponents are not trying to stop that policy and to come back. But who knows. You see what happened once again with the US election, so with bringing fake news, with having a very, very bad public debate. You never know, and the fact is that our democracies are fragile. It's never finished, and you don't know what can happen. The fact is that I'm sorry to say that, because of course, it can be pessimistic, and we need to keep optimistic, but I must admit and be also honest with you about what I think, because we also see what is happening all over the world, if you are looking for what's happening in China, in Russia, in India, here in Europe. Up in Hungary, also the far right, which is at a very high level in Germany and also in France, these threats are existing, and no one knows. So what can happen once again? So we continue to be in the in the fight. So we continue to fight, and we continue to defend our vision of a progressive city and a progressive vision of the city and what should be the life between citizens, and I think that we can convince also the majority, despite what is happening in the different countries.

Fredrik Gertten:

I think what democracy needs is citizens that meet each other in a daily conversation. And I think city planning can help that. And I know that's also what you're doing in Paris. You're creating a lot of more of natural meeting points when you create the parks and you take away cars so so citizen can actually meet better in Paris now. And I think that's it's it's making people actually see each other in a much better way. And I think that's the big problem with the United States of America, is that people are so far from each other, they are sitting in these cars forever, and they go to this big shopping malls. So I think that Paris has in itself a vaccine against the worst shit, also because of your work, that you're improving the public spaces. Yes,

Christophe Najdovski:

because we can show that another world or another city is possible, and we should also always try to bet on the collective intelligence and the intelligence of the of the people, instead of trying to bring them to bad instincts. So it's also the way we try to make politics it works. Yes, it can work, and we will always try to keep that approach about thinking that people can be also intelligent and not just answer to the worst that can exist also in our world. Yeah,

Leilani Farha:

I think that there's a bigger theme at play at city level, at national level, and regionally and internationally. And that bigger theme is, there's a big issue right now around humanity, and how do we bring ourselves back to an understanding of humanity? And I think these small things, they may seem small, a green space, a place for people to come together, as Fredrik said, a place for people to actually see each other. I think these seem small, but I think they're actually incredibly important, because there is a real loss of humanity right now across the world in many different contexts, and this debate cars versus bikes is really part of a microcosm of this macro where, really humanity is being lost, lost, lost to So, to this other ideology and so again, applause for Paris trying to create a more humane place. Because, seriously, I think the implications are really big.

Fredrik Gertten:

I think we should wrap up because we've been spending a lot of your time. But do you have any final message to our listeners?

Christophe Najdovski:

Yes, I try to be always optimistic and be confident also about the future, because it's also our role as I am a politician. I am also an activist. I'm not defining myself just like someone who is elected and a politician. I am also a citizen, of course, and before I was elected, I was also an activist. So if I went to politics, it's to change things and to improve things. So we should always think that we can improve things and have a better world and better cities, and try to be optimistic and to be confident about what the humanity can do.

Fredrik Gertten:

Yes and democracy is the answer to what we are confronting right now, and democracy needs good politicians. We are really proud to have you on our podcast, and thank you so much for your time, and I wish you all the best for the future of Paris and and yourself. Thanks.

Leilani Farha:

Christoph, so nice to meet you.

Christophe Najdovski:

Thank you very much. I was very also appreciating our discussion and your invitation. And thanks a lot.

Fredrik Gertten:

Thank you. So it was interesting. There was a tone of pessimism, of course, because it's tough times, but also it's amazing what they've been doing, and they are actually confronting you. Yeah, the big guys, which I like, and

Leilani Farha:

not so pessimistic, really, just very thoughtful, and considering what they're up against, right? Really, he has it front of mind what he's up against, and yet he's still going. So very cool.

Fredrik Gertten:

Yeah, so we made one more episode of our podcast. That's nice. We did? We

Leilani Farha:

keep going,

Fredrik Gertten:

yeah. So what more shall we turn our listeners you will. You should rate the podcast. You should tell your friends about it. You should send links about it so people know more. People know we still have listeners in 162 countries, but we want more. So please keep telling your friends about pushback

Leilani Farha:

posts. I have an idea too. Those of you out there who are writers, who take to social media, who put pen to paper, include comments about this amazing little podcast you listen to that will spread the word.

Fredrik Gertten:

I like that. Leilani, you were such a such a wise woman

Leilani Farha:

and what else? What about money? Money? Money, money? No,

Fredrik Gertten:

there is a way to support a podcast with with money, because we don't make any so. So go to patreon.com and look for pushback talks, and then you can help us with a monthly $1 to $10 to $5,000 nobody's put $5,000 a month. So don't worry you. You will be the first one that's right. That's right. No, thank you. And Leilani, have a great day over there in ice cold Canada.

Leilani Farha:

Not yet. It's been warm. Not

Fredrik Gertten:

yet, okay, it's

Leilani Farha:

warm. It's warm and sunny. It's warm and sunny or pronounced, but is the darkness descended in Malawi? Oh,

Fredrik Gertten:

it's, it's it's dark, it's dark, it's dark. Yeah,

Leilani Farha:

it's dark here, too, yeah, it's dark here, too.

Fredrik Gertten:

Take care, my friend. And talk soon bye.

Leilani Farha:

Talksoon bye.

Kirsten McRae:

Pushback talks is produced by WG film. To support the podcast, become a patreon by going to patreon.com/pushbacktalks, follow us on social media at make underscore the shift and push underscore the film, or check out our websites. Maketheshift.org. Pushthefilm.com, or breakingsocialfilm.com