PUSHBACK Talks

Ending Homelessness the Finnish Way - with Juha Kahila

• WG Film • Season 8 • Episode 11

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Finland has achieved what many countries still deem impossible: significantly reducing long-term homelessness through a Housing First model. Finland's model, which has reduced homelessness by 80% since 2008, doesn't just provide housing – it prevents homelessness through strategic urban planning, integrated support services, and proactive intervention.

Join Fredrik and Leilani as they speak with Juha Kahila, Head of International Affairs at Y-Säätiö (Y-Foundation), about Finland's comprehensive approach to ending homelessness. The three discuss how homelessness isn't inevitable, but rather a result of policy choices – and how this pragmatic model could offer a blueprint for ending homelessness worldwide.

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Kirsten McRae:

In the global conversation about homelessness, one nation stands apart. Finland has achieved what many considered impossible, reducing long term homelessness by over 80% this remarkable transformation wasn't achieved through temporary shelters or emergency measures, but through a radical yet simple idea, give people homes first. In 1987 Finland had over 18,000 people experiencing homelessness. By 2017 that number had plummeted to fewer than 2000 individuals experiencing long term homelessness. The Secret a comprehensive national strategy that prioritizes prevention alongside permanent housing solutions. By switching to a housing first model, Finland has created a system that doesn't just respond to homelessness, it prevents it. Our guest today is Juha kahila, Head of International Affairs at Wye Foundation, one of the architects of Finland's housing first approach through proactive intervention and integrated support services. Finland is proving that homelessness isn't an inevitable social ill, but a solvable problem. Even more remarkable, this solution actually saves money, approximately 15,000 euro per person annually through reduced social service needs. Juha asserts that being homeless is a choice, not the choice of those living in homelessness, but the choice of leaders who support policies that create homelessness in today's episode of pushback, talks Juha, talks to Frederick and Leilani about how Finland's pragmatic, prevention focused approach could offer a blueprint for ending homelessness worldwide.

Fredrik Gertten:

I'm Fredrik Gertten, and I'm the filmmaker

Leilani Farha:

and I'm Leilani Farha and I'm the advocate,

Fredrik Gertten:

and this is, this is like our podcast, again,

Leilani Farha:

it just keeps going and going.

Fredrik Gertten:

We just keep going. And it's winter. It's a new year. It comes with good things and a lot of bad things, but we keep our mission up and us try to find inspiration, find people who are doing cool stuff, and send it on, because we need light, even if it's 25 below zero in Ottawa and your but your dog still wants to walk.

Leilani Farha:

He loves it. He gets very frisky. Bean. His name is. He gets very frisky in the cold weather. He loves it. But you're right, Frederick, these are, you know, it's funny, because January in Canada, we have beautiful light. The light is gorgeous. The skies are gorgeous when the sun comes out. And yet, these are dark times for sure, not just because of Donald Trump's presidency, but many other things going sideways in the world. We know Israel, Palestine situation is out of control, and Sudan and and, and we could go on, but we need light. We need the light.

Fredrik Gertten:

We will, we will try to bring the light. I can tell you that our podcasts, you know, we have a very global audience, and we have now two new countries where we have listeners. So we are up to 164 countries that are listening to this podcast. Fantastic. And I always try to make a quiz so you can find out it's two African countries. One is extremely big with almost no population. The other one is even bigger. It's like big as Western Europe. It was the king of Belgium's own slave colony, and now Leilani, I'm

Leilani Farha:

getting a cheat a cheat sheet note from the producer Kirsten, saying Namibia and Congo.

Fredrik Gertten:

Yeah. I mean, the Democratic Republic of Congo is right, and also Botswana, very close to Namibia.

Leilani Farha:

There we go. That's very cool. That's, yeah, it's cool.

Fredrik Gertten:

So cool. So welcome listeners to push back talks, yes. And if you have very cold weather, we have no skies, but not very cold, but so we are now going to connect with somebody who has snow falling outside his window, and that's in Finland, Helsinki, where we Have Jua Kaila, who is the Head of International Affairs of the Y Foundation, and the Y means the letter Y, not the question, why? Just to be clear, you are welcome to push back talks.

Juha Kahila:

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so we

Fredrik Gertten:

read, And I'm. We were checking some headlines of Finland and housing, and then it one, one came up, Finland the happiest country in the world. Is that true?

Juha Kahila:

Well, it must be, because seven years in a row so

Fredrik Gertten:

But isn't that a contest where the actually your own people vote, so it's more a measure of nationalism, or I

Juha Kahila:

think so, yeah, yeah, I think so. And I think it's because we are quite humble people, in my opinion, so we don't need much to be happy, as long as we have home good health, little bit of money to spend on a grocery store, and we are quite happy. And of course, if we do well in ice hockey, of course, that counts,

Leilani Farha:

which is the problem. Sometimes I know I love it, putting aside hockey, coming from a hockey nation myself, I love it. If you have the basics, you can be happy. Yeah,

Fredrik Gertten:

I read it as a joke, being humbled and then voting for your own country as the happiest it's like, but it's fine. It's all good. It's all good. But there are also some other headlines about Finland. It's like Finland's housing policy has shrunk, homeless rates. Could Australia do the same? There is like an article from Australian newspaper

Leilani Farha:

and many Canadian newspapers, it's like every paper, every news outlet has asked, has wanted to know why Canada can't do what Finland is doing. Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten:

And I mean, there is a story here, also Helsinki, the city with no homeless on its streets. And here you are, I guess this is what you've been successful with. Can you tell us about the success story of not having homeless people on your streets?

Juha Kahila:

Yeah, well, I think, you know, it considers a lot of consistent work. I think that's the main thing. So it didn't happen overnight. And then I think the main messages has always been that we have never stopped building affordable, state subsidized housing. And of course, that has been the cornerstone of our success, because we actually have housing that people can afford. And then been traveling around the world in Canada and US and many European countries, that's not the case. So, so that's the first thing. But then again, also, I think when we started with the housing first, so that homeless people would first get the home and then the support they need, I think what we did different compared to many other countries, is that we went all in. We didn't start a small pilot project for 50 tenants or anything like that, but we wanted to change the whole system, more or less. So we start to renovate the existing shelters, and then bring accommodation into permanent homes for people, and then offered offer the tailor made support. So I think those two things, combined with the political will, political will has been the one of the most powerful things in Finland. And of course, it's little bit cracking at the moment, unfortunately, but I think there is still this kind of consensus that we should be able to house everyone who doesn't have a home of their own. But I think the affordable housing is it's the cornerstone. And you know, that's something that many, many of the countries and big cities especially, are lacking at the moment.

Fredrik Gertten:

And traveling to North America, to Toronto or to New York or to other US cities. It's like there's been a war going on. You know, internal refugees wandering the streets. That's your country. Also. Leilani,

Leilani Farha:

it most certainly is. And it's shocking to me. I was thinking about it this morning as I was getting ready for our podcast, and that what governments have allowed, what governments allow, what governments think is okay. I mean, they won't say, Oh, I've never met a government that said, oh, yeah, we like homelessness. But their actions speak very loud, and their actions demonstrate that they don't care that much. And I used to, I remember when I was un rapporteur, I said when I wrote a report on homelessness globally, and I said, why are people not like screaming in the streets, tearing out their hair? Look at the situation we have here, rich nations, I mean, nations whose economies are growing at the same time homelessness is growing, which suggests the growth of a nation is causing an increase in homelessness. Yeah, completely upside down world. It amazes me. I don't know. Juha, in your travels, you've talked to a lot of politicians. You you're traveling the world. What do you hear from politicians?

Juha Kahila:

Well, you know, of course, all the politicians I have met, they would like to find this kind of magic guru, how they could fix homelessness like that, snapping their fingers and and when we tell the story that. Know, it has been take a little bit longer than just snapping our fingers. It's like, Hmm, that's interesting, and maybe we will, you know, reconsider doing it. But I think one of the main messages is that most politicians, they always ask, how we deal in Finland with the homeless people who are homeless by choice that they want to be homeless. And I'm always quite surprised of that question, because I have talked to, let's say, 1000, 1500 different homeless people, and I have never met anyone who's willingly homeless. There are many reasons why they are homeless, but no one wants to be there, neither on the streets or in a shelter or in their precom, the basic need is home of their own. And then I start thinking about the thing that maybe homelessness is a choice. It's not choice of the people who are homeless, but it's choice of the politicians and the decisions we are doing that are affecting into this, this homeless situation. So I think next time I some some politician, will ask the question from me, I will turn it upside down and ask that, you know, yeah, it is a choice, choice of the policies and the decisions that has been made in the upper levels. And now the people who are homeless are the ones who are suffering because of these policies. It's

Fredrik Gertten:

again, like this struggle of the message, you know, they the story of people being voluntarily homeless is so strong. And wherever you come in the world, you will hear this story. People don't want to work, people don't want to have a home. And I'm just back from South Africa, and I could hear the same story there. And it's, of course, it's not the true story, but it travels really well. So this is something for you, you guys, you housing advocates. How do you turn that story around? I mean, your suggestion is great when you talk with the government, but how do we how do we turn it around when we talk to the general public?

Leilani Farha:

I don't know how to turn it around myself. I have to say that it's been my experience as well. I've met hundreds and hundreds of homeless people everywhere and around the world, and I have yet to find anyone two things, yet to find anyone who would, who says, No, I I really wouldn't want an A nice, warm or cool home to keep me safe at night, and, you know, a place to store my belongings. I've never met a single person who would say that, and I've also never met a person who didn't want to pay what they could for housing. Everyone says to me, I want to pay. I just want to pay what is reasonable for me, that's all. And I have very low income, so I can only pay very little. How to change perceptions. I mean, you know, if governments took more leadership, in my opinion, I think it would change perception. But I'm interested to know what you have thinks,

Juha Kahila:

yeah, I echo what you said about the government taking more responsible. And then I was thinking what we did in Finland when we started with the housing first, because it was 2008 this was the global banking crisis, so there was no extra money anywhere. And yet again, we were able to push quite a bit of money to make the systemic chasing the Housing First. And of course, we needed to communicate that to the public, why we are doing this, and what are the benefits for them as well. So what we did is that we concentrated on few things to make cities more safer for everyone. When we take care of the most vulnerable people in our societies, we are saving money in the long run while we are doing it, because it costs a lot more if people are in shelters then re accommodation or on the streets, because they tend to use a lot more emergency services. They end up jail more often, long hospital stays, so on and so on. And then, then the final thing. Final thing was that it was quite practical to be honest, that you know when, when homeless people are forced to use the emergency services, it means that the hospitals, for example, has to put more resources towards the emergency services, which means that if you end up on emergency services, you might have to wait much longer. Or if your family needs a doctor appointment, you will not get it tomorrow or next week, but you might have to wait a little bit longer. So combining these three, three elements, I think we were quite successful of communicating the public why this is the right thing to do. And I think, you know, it still carry on. So I think there has been some cracking on the way, but I think the main message still delivers, at least in Finland, and I would say, in some of the Nordic countries today as well. I

Fredrik Gertten:

think this is very clear and good arguments. It's better for all, and a happier society is actually better for all. Of course, it goes totally against this kind of government we see popping up now, like in the US, with a very different message. But Leilani. We, we, in this podcast, we mainly talk to to cities, people from cities, mayors and so on this level, what can you do? I mean, if we, if the, if the national government, are lost with the billionaires, what can you do on the city level?

Leilani Farha:

Well, the same, the same ideas and biases exist at the city level city governments as at the national level, and so the same work has to be done there. In Canada right now, there's a huge divide between city officials who want to understand homelessness for what it is, and treat people living in homelessness as human beings with dignity and respect and get them housed. And there's a whole other side of politicians at the city level that want to sweep homeless people off the streets, not provide them with anything, and just make it all disappear. One of the things I think that's super important is, of course, for governments to show their residents, the whole population, that people living in homelessness are human beings. The number one thing the pattern I've seen across the world, when I meet with homeless people, they always say the same thing to me, I just want to be treated like a human being with dignity and respect everywhere I go, I've heard that, and so governments have to start doing that. That would change how populations view people living in homelessness. If their governments were saying, Look, we really need to help these people, and this is a systemic issue, not an individualized, personalized issue. There may be personal characteristics that contribute to homelessness, but when you have hundreds of 1000s of people living in homelessness, you know an 18% increase in homelessness in the United States in the in the last year, 18% 18 you know that there is a systemic issue at play. I think the media has a role to play too, not just in Expo like providing us stories about people living in homelessness, and that they do that a lot. What they don't do is investigative journalism on the links between government, fiscal, monetary policy and how it's contributing to homelessness, and we need more of that, in my opinion, like you asked before about advocacy, we need more of that kind of in depth research and reporting on those systemic factors that are causing this shouldn't we be querying how it Is that a country can show 3% economic growth and a huge increase in homelessness. Shouldn't that be a point of investigation?

Juha Kahila:

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And I think nowadays there's a lot of stuff going on and happening in social media, YouTube, X and all of these places which are showcasing the homelessness as you know, I think one of the titles was like, welcome to jombiland. And it was a story, not story, but this kind of weird thing about the city of Philadelphia, because of the fentanyl and all the drugs that's going there. And then these kind of YouTube videos they have, you know, 10s of millions of views. So I think that's something that we need to learn to do as well. You know, investigating the stories more closely, and then how to change the narrative in this kind of social media platforms as well. Because if we cannot do that, then I think, you know, it doesn't matter how much we push the normal media shall speak to put out these stories and investigations. If we can control, not control, but have our peers in the social media platforms as well, and that's lacking at the moment completely. In my opinion. I think the invisible people, Mark Horowitz is doing great work. But other than that, I think it's more or less non existent. Yeah, yeah,

Fredrik Gertten:

yeah. We made a film about this issue. I remember Leilani.

Juha Kahila:

It's a good one. Yeah. An

Leilani Farha:

endorsement from you. Fantastic.

Fredrik Gertten:

That's good. But my question was still about if we, if we don't, the national government, are gone with the billionaires, what would your advice be to see this? Is it possible to to make this happen in a city like Toronto, for example?

Juha Kahila:

Yeah, it's a good question. I'm traveling there end of February. Actually, I'm going there, talking a conference, but that's, that's another question. I think you can make it work on on a city level, and then, you know, and at the same time, when we have governments like like we have nowadays here and there. I think we have to work on a city level as well, because we cannot wait to government support for you know, maybe in the four year time there will be a new government, but that, you know, you never know what will happen in the election. So I think for sure you have to work on a city level, on a regional level, start to making this euro. On ending homelessness plans. And then I think that is the future in many parts of the Europe as well. And for in us, for sure, in the in the upcoming, next four years, the cities and the states, they have to do their own plans, and then and make sure that they can have the funding to roll out those plans as well. And then I, I think in Finland as well, you know, I think the government is pushing out a little bit regarding the national work of homelessness, and it will put more pressure towards the cities and developing counties, for sure. And I think that's, that's something that they will need to take on their shoulders and carry on the work

Leilani Farha:

on the issue of cities. I was in Brazil, I don't know, a year and a half ago or so and or maybe it was two years ago, and Lula's government decided to adopt a housing first approach on a they're doing, running it as a model, and they wanted to do it in six cities. I actually haven't had an update to know how it's going, but one city mayor did a presentation that was amazing. And what was so cool was she had just decided on her own that, you know, she knows housing is a fundamental human right, and that homelessness is a violation of that right, and she decided that for her small city, she was going to solve homelessness, and she was going to use a housing first approach insofar as she could. What I liked about what she did was she was super creative in trying to find homes for people, and this is something I do not see enough of, like cities being really creative about where they can find resources, because they often don't have a lot of money, right? City level governments and federal if national level governments aren't giving them the money for this, they're going to have to find their own resources. So she, like, she was, like, knocking on doors and asking people, Do you have an extra bedroom that could be used? You know, like, like that. And I think that that's there's two things to what I'm saying. One is recognizing that housing is a fundamental human right and that homelessness is a violation. I think that's key to all of this. And two, being creative about it. And I really find there's a crisis of creativity with a lot of governments, not just city governments, a lot of governments. And I do think that part of Finland's success was and you Hai, correct me if I'm wrong, but a willingness, you said it at the beginning, you went all in. And to me, an all in approach is a creative approach, right? And Finns are kind of known for that, right, thinking laterally, coming at things from the side, turning over every stone, but correct me if I'm wrong you, huh?

Juha Kahila:

No, I think that's right. And I think we are quite pragmatic people, so when we decide to do something, we just do it more or less. And then, and I completely agree with you that we need more bold solutions to find the fundings, but then I can also with different kind of housing solutions. And I think the Brazil example you gave is an excellent because we have been working together with the city of Sao Paulo for the past 18 months or so. And then, of course, the issue there is horrible. So 80,000 people on the streets and so on. But they have started to work something. So they came to Helsinki. See the places we renovate from the shelters, these housing first units, which means that there can be, let's say, 40 people in one building, and then support on the site with work activities, neighborhood work, all these kind of things. And then they have created something similar in the City of South power. And so far, they have 1200 homes for homeless families, and they have the work activities there for the families, they have, kindergarten, schools and so on. So little by little, I think this, this kind of sports solutions will will apply over to different countries as well, and that's something that I have been crying out loud for many years, that if we only stick with the scattered housing, we will be talking about these issues in the next 2075 or 2100 because we just don't have the housing capacity at the moment, and it will take time when we actually start building affordable housing. And it will take time before we have the stock globally that we actually need to house everyone. So we need to be involved with the housing as well and ask people what they want. Because some of the visitors we are we have in Finland, they say that, but hey, why people are living in these kind of units? But hey, then again, we always ask, do you prefer to live in scattered housing or more, like this kind of community based solution? And if people want to live in community based solutions, I think that's something that we also need to offer to them, because one size housing does not fit for all. Yeah, I think

Fredrik Gertten:

this is one of the reasons we you are. You are one of the reasons that we are doing this podcast to send out this message that it's not hopeless. Everything is not difficult. As a lot of people will say, there is a message here. It's possible. We can do things. We can change things. And. And you don't have to be a radical, whatever communist. You can actually be somebody who's trying to do good things and create values for everybody in the society, which is, obviously is happening in Finland. Leilani,

Leilani Farha:

yeah, I mean, the hope that Finland poses for the rest of us is super important, the Sao Paulo example, is also super important, because, believe it or not, when I wrote my homelessness report as UN Special Rapporteur, there was a big controversy about whether the term homelessness applied in southern contexts, believe it or not, and of course, we were careful not to define living in an informal settlement as homelessness, because informal settlements are vibrant communities and people have vibrant homes in informal settlements, What we were clear about was we're talking about people living on the streets or in very temporary accommodations, not not like informal settlements. And so I hope our listeners from the global south look into what's happening in Sao Paulo, and it's good for me you have because I didn't hear an update from when I was there two years ago, when we were talking to Lula's government about rolling out this housing first. So it's very nice to know that Sao Paulo has charged ahead within your care, which is wonderful, but also

Fredrik Gertten:

should follow up. We should follow up on Sao Paulo. Absolutely, it

Leilani Farha:

would be. It would be. It's super important to know that this applies equally in the Global North and the global South, and can be done anywhere, really. I'm wondering if you could just quickly you, like, I don't think people really understand the situation in let's say Helsinki, like, if I fall into homelessness, can you take me through what would happen, where what would what would happen? So I'm homeless, what do I do? How would I know what to do and where would I land? Yeah, well,

Juha Kahila:

first of all, there are many things that the social services or the landlords would have tried to do before you end up being homeless. So different kind of preventive measurements and services are offered to people before they end up being homeless, but if they do, I think there are two cases, so two different ways. So first is that you know your way. You know who is your social worker. You have a meeting with him or her. And then then, then you decide what kind of support you need and what kind of apartment you need. And then most of the people they might need support only for the first let's say, three months, how to get their financial situation back in order, new apartment, and off they go back back on their lives. But then again, if you have different kind of challenges, let's say you have mental health challenges or substance abuse challenges, and you don't know how to navigate the system, you might end up on the street for a short period of time, but there is outreach workers who were all on the streets every night, every day, and then they will try to make sure that they can contact everyone who is on the streets and make sure that they will find a safe place for them for the night. We still have shelters in Helsinki. I will just quickly say that in the 1990s we had 2000 shelter beds, and now the number is 200 so the reduction have been 90% but we still have 200 shelter beds. So people will spend a night in there, and then, usually within a week, they will have meeting with the social worker, explain the situation, find a way, what is the best housing option for them the support needs. And then then together, they make the decision if it's catered housing with the support home visits and so on. In the city of Helsinki, at the moment, they can find us catte apartment usually within a four to six weeks. So it's quite fast. And during that time, you will stay in a temporary accommodation, which is like like apartment as well. And then if you want to live in one of these housing first units, where the support is 24/7, and you have the support needs, and then, and if you want to live in a specific unit, so it's only this one option, I will move, then there is a chance that you might have to wait, let's say six to nine months, even for the most popular units. And that is the truth in Helsinki as well. But if you are not, you know, if you are a little bit more flexible, you can live in any of the units you wish. Usually it's anything you know, I think it's three months at the moment. So that's one of the things that the City of Helsinki has said, that we need more of these housing, first units in the City of Helsinki, with 30 to 40 apartments, and then the support on site with the work activities, because it works really well, and people really want to live in those kind of settlements, especially after COVID I would say, because people are so afraid of feeling. Own and isolated if they live in a scattered apartment. So they want to have this kind of aspect that, you know, there is always someone there if they need to talk, have a chat, or do some things. Leilani,

Fredrik Gertten:

it looks like you will be taken well care of in Helsinki in Finland. You know,

Leilani Farha:

as Juha is talking, I'm having two thoughts. I'm like, oh my god, it's just unbelievable. It's unbelievable. And then it's possible, possible. But then the other thought I'm having is, this is totally normal. This is how it should be. Come on. I mean, it's just humane. That's all. It's saying, that these people matter, that they have lives to lead, that Finland wants them to contribute to society, and the way for that to happen is for them to be well housed. I mean, it's, you know, kind of a no brainer.

Fredrik Gertten:

So when you talk to the Canadian authorities, as you do to the politicians, Leilani and maybe also you you are, you tell them about this way of solving things, what is their answer?

Leilani Farha:

Well, the Canadian government has come on board to some degree. They have rolled out some money to some cities, and they said that these cities should adopt a housing first and human rights based approach, which housing first and human rights fit very nicely, like you heard Juha talking about how the consumer or the person is driving the process, and that's very human rights oriented, for example. And of course, securing housing is human rights and affordable housing is human rights, so it's compatible approaches. But the problem, from my perspective, is the resources allocated. And you have can talk about this, because he was in Canada recently, and we had a conversation about, you know, what's the key ingredient here? Besides money, the key ingredient is actual homes in which people can be housed. And cities in Canada will say we don't have any housing. What's not exactly true, we do, but it's all extremely expensive housing, apartments at 2000$3,000 a month for rent. So the money that's flowing and the resources that are available don't maybe match the program, but you have, please, I mean, you have a you have knowledge on this as well.

Juha Kahila:

Yeah, I think homes are the big issue. And I think the now former Housing Minister, Sean Fraser, I have been in a panel discussion with him, and then I met him last fall when I was in order by international conference. And I think he was telling in both of these occasions that the biggest mistake has been that Canada stopped building state subsidized affordable housing in the early 90s. And I think that is that is totally true, because when we looked at statistics, let's say 1985 1987 Canada was actually building more affordable housing than Finland. And then, but then, then you guys stopped, and we kept going. And now we can see the consequences of those decisions, in my opinion, and many and the same thing has happened in the UK as well, and many European countries that actually stopped building affordable housing in the 1990s and all of the sudden, there is 10s of 1000s of homeless people. So there is a straight correlation between these two things. The

Fredrik Gertten:

facts are on the table. Why people can't afford to live,

Leilani Farha:

but there's the flip to that too. It's not just that they stopped building state, affordable housing, public housing, social housing, whatever you want to call it. They don't call it that in Sweden. We know that. But they also allowed the private sector to just do whatever the private sector will do. And you know, we've seen, and that's what push the film is about, very much, right since the global financial crisis, what that has meant, and so it's a double whammy, right? Double Jeopardy, as they say,

Fredrik Gertten:

yeah, yeah. I mean, what we can see here in my city, for example, the city of Malmo, is that we also don't have so much people sleeping on the streets, but the cost for the city of taking care of homeless people is rising drastically. So in some way, when the private makes tons of money out of our homes, they are also moving cost over to the cities to the taxpayers, which is also something that the politicians should look into, because a little bit stupid to let the rich run away with all the money, which they do. So it is a political issue this way of the speculation into the poorest people's homes.

Juha Kahila:

Yeah, I think it doesn't make any sense, because in Finland, the current government is also think about that we actually should have been less affordable housing in the future, because the market will take care of the affordable side as well. But then again, we have asked many times, can you show us any evidence where that has happened ever? And then, so far, it's, it's a little bit quiet scheme, but

Fredrik Gertten:

that's a that's a way. Making them to silence them. We had here in the podcast a few months ago, the deputy mayor of Paris and so also Paris have built. They have now 25% of the people living in so called social housing. So Paris has they are also addressing it in some ways, with more affordable units. So it is, even in a big city, it's, it's possible to to change things and to do things,

Leilani Farha:

yeah, hopefully. I mean, I think Paris still has the highest rate of Airbnbs of any city in the world, or something like that. It's not a great claim to fame, no,

Fredrik Gertten:

but they're also changing the legislation on Airbnb. They are and

Leilani Farha:

and they're being pretty aggressive in the city of Paris on a number of friends, and that's what it's going to take. I mean, you never see change unless you have governments that are willing to be bold and pragmatic. But you know, I mean, if I zoom out a little bit, one of the things that I've learned in the last 16 months watching a genocide unfold, including against my own people, is that for many governments, and this goes to you, has point about homelessness being a choice, but it's a choice of governments, not a choice of people. Some people are expendable to governments. They are willing. I've learned that in the last 16 months, and I now know that my people, many Arabs and Muslims, are expendable. Our lives are expendable, and that's the calculation politicians are making and taking as much as I find it stomach churning to say it and devastating. It's I have been devastated by this understanding that, I mean, I know that many people around the world already knew this, and it's maybe a naive awakening for me, but as an Arab Canadian, I suddenly realized, all right, some lives are really expendable. Political calculations are being made, and I think that's the case where homelessness is concerned. I think governments are making the calculation. This is a population that they feel doesn't vote. They are often marginalized. In my country, for example, disproportionate number are indigenous, disabled, LGBTQ, like, right? And so these are people that they can write off, politically, write off

Fredrik Gertten:

human rights for some, not for all. That's the slogan of our time, obviously. And and this can be seen in a global context, but also in the local context. So you're totally right, and that should make all of us really upset, because, as you explains that it's good for all if people are not living rough, sleeping rough. I mean, you your your story about coming to the to the emergency center with with a sick kid and and if it's the emergency room or the waiting room is full of of homeless people, it will be more complicated. And then there will be a guard checking so people are behaving well, this will be it creates a lot of stress in society, so to house people is good for all. Yes, I think that's a beautiful and very easy conclusion we should wrap up. We've been on it for some time. But Leilani, do you any Juha, do you have any final thoughts? Message to the world.

Juha Kahila:

Well, I think, you know, homelessness, it's not inevitable. We can solve it. We have proved that it can happen. Sometimes it can take one political champion to change the course of a big ship. It will not happen overnight, but then again, it will happen at some point. So I think that's important message to remember that, you know, there are many good people doing the work, and sooner or later, we have the political champions we need to make the bold changes for a better policies and better politics for all the people, not just for some. So

Fredrik Gertten:

that's a message to all you political champions out there, go and grab this. You will change a lot in the world, in the city where you live, in the country you live, Leilani, I

Leilani Farha:

love it. I'm not going to add anything more.

Fredrik Gertten:

That's sweet. Thank you very much. Thank you for being on our podcast. You and Leilani. Nice to see you again. It's probably good to see you inside, not outside. But

Leilani Farha:

yes, no frozen eyelashes inside. Now, I think I

Fredrik Gertten:

prefer to wait to come to Canada until February. It's too soon. You are you should not go there in February. It's the time of the ice storm. We'll see. We'll see.

Leilani Farha:

We'll see. I hope to see you. You have in Toronto. I don't know if I'll be there at that time, but if I am, let's have a coffee.

Juha Kahila:

For sure, that would be great. Thanks for having me. It's a privilege.

Fredrik Gertten:

It's a pleasure. Thank you very much. And Leilani, thank you very much for doing this podcast together with me. It's a pleasure. And I when I check out, I feel, wow, it is possible. I think that's a very nice conclusion. So see you soon again. See you soon. Leilani, you have to tell our listeners in these 164 countries. How do we fund this podcast? Well,

Leilani Farha:

we have no funding for this podcast, and we do not accept advertisements. So people can go to patreon.com and look for pushback talks and send us a little love via money, yeah, and every little bit helps. You can become a patreon of the podcast, and

Fredrik Gertten:

you can also go in and rate the podcast, make a comment wherever you listening, and, of course, send the podcast on to your friends. If you have friends who are complaining a lot how difficult everything is right now, send this podcast on, and they will listen to Jua, and then they will feel that change is possible. Thank you very much. See you soon. Leilani,

Leilani Farha:

Thanks Fredrik.

Kirsten McRae:

pushback talks is produced by WG film. To support the podcast, become a patron by going to patreon.com/pushback, talks. Follow us on social media at make underscore the shift and push underscore the film, or check out our websites. Maketheshift.org, pushthefilm.com, or breakingsocialfilm.com