Sweden vs Tesla: The Longest Labor Strike in History

What happens when Elon Musk's anti-union Tesla meets Sweden's powerful labor movement? Since October 2023, Swedish workers have maintained the country's longest strike in a century, with solidarity spreading across Nordic countries. In this episode, Fredrik and Leilani speak with German Bender, chief analyst at Arena think tank and Harvard Labor researcher, about how this historic standoff represents a clash between Silicon Valley's corporate libertarianism and the Nordic model of collective bargaining. Learn why dockworkers, postal workers, and even Norway's sovereign wealth fund have joined the resistance – and what this conflict means for worker rights globally.

Transcript

Kirsten McRae: 0:00

If you've been following the news in the last three months, I can guarantee you've seen Elon Musk grandstanding like he just can't lose. You wouldn't know by looking, but the world's richest man is currently staring down one of the longest labor strikes in history. Since October 2023 Swedish mechanics at Tesla have been on strike, creating what's now become the longest labor dispute in Sweden in a century, in a country where nearly 90% of workers are covered by collective bargaining agreements, and where companies of Tesla size almost universally participate in these agreements, Tesla stands as a remarkable outlier. What began as a local dispute has sparked growing solidarity 12 Swedish unions and three northern European ones have joined the fight. Dock workers won't unload Tesla vehicles. Postal workers won't deliver Tesla mail. Even the powerful Norwegian sovereign wealth fund, a major Tesla shareholder, has pressured Musk to negotiate. This confrontation represents more than a labor dispute. It's a clash between two visions of the future, Musk's model of unfettered corporate power, versus the Nordic tradition of collective bargaining and workers rights. Today on Pushback Talks, Fredrik and Leilani sit down with German Bender, chief analyst at the progressive Swedish think tank Arena and senior research associate at Harvard Law School's Center for Labor and a Just Economy. As the author of an upcoming book on the Tesla strike, Bender brings us inside this historic Libra battle and reveals why its outcome could shape worker Employee Relations far beyond Northern Europe. Listen in as they discuss what happens when the world's wealthiest man collides with one of the world's strongest labor movements, and whether this could be the beginning of an international resistance coalition.

Fredrik Gertten: 1:45

I'm Fredrik Gertten and I'm the filmmaker,

Leilani Farha: 1:47

and I'm Leilani Farha and I'm the advocate,

Fredrik Gertten: 1:55

and this is again, Pushback Talks. And, yeah, we are living in strange times. Leilani, very

Leilani Farha: 2:02

strange. I had 40 centimeters of snow last night, but that's not what you mean.

Fredrik Gertten: 2:07

That's kind of, it's it's beautiful, of course, with lot of snow.

Leilani Farha: 2:11

40 centimeters, it's a lot.

Fredrik Gertten: 2:13

It's a lot, yeah, but could you build a snow wall to the US? Then

Leilani Farha: 2:18

maybe that's the answer. Six months of the year, snow, snow, wall between us and the US of A Yeah,

Fredrik Gertten: 2:27

yeah. We talked last episode about Canada under threat. And it's, I think it's interesting with now, with so many peoples around the world have found out that they can't trust the US of A anymore, yeah. And what happens when, when Trump and Musk is having, you know, they have enemies in Denmark, in Saudi Arabia, in Turkey and Mexico, Canada, everywhere South Africa, they stir up a lot of shit, and at some point, people will fight back. And I think it's the resistance is coming together in some way, that's what I hope and I assume. But today we're going to talk about resistance against Elon Musk and big corporations who don't like unions. And here, you know, in my country, we've had the longest strike in labor history. It's been the Metal Workers Union against Tesla. So we invited a man who knows a lot about this German Bender, who is a chief analyst at Think Tank called arena, but he's also affiliate to the Harvard University and the Stockholm School of Economics and Herman, you know a lot about can you just tell us? Well, welcome first to to Pushback Talks. Thank you. Thank you. It's good to be here, but tell us what, what's cooking it's been on for a year this strike. What is it all about?

German Bender: 3:53

Well, it's, yeah, actually, it's been going on for a little more than a year. It started in october 27 of 2023 so it's close to a year and a half, pretty soon, and it's the first and only strike against I mean, there are many reasons why this strike is historic. As you mentioned, it's one of the longest strikes ever in Swedish history. It's also the first and so far, the only strike against Tesla anywhere in the world. Despite Tesla's numerous undocumented attempts to counteract and crush attempts of organizing among their employees, there has never been a formal strike anywhere.

Fredrik Gertten: 4:36

It seems like Tesla is kind of unique in the world of automobiles, because most of the US big automakers have unions, so Tesla is unique. Yeah,

German Bender: 4:48

I don't think we have time to go into in detail here, but there are important differences between the industrial relations systems, so the labor market models in Europe and especially in the Nordics and the United States. So you. You can organize in a union here in Sweden, despite not having being acknowledged by the employer. In the United States, you're either unionized or you're not here. You can be without having a collective bargaining agreement, which is the reason why they're striking here. But as you say, in the United States, the big automakers, the big three, they're usually called Ford General Motors and stellantis, which used to be Chrysler, they have collective bargaining agreements, contracts with their employees, but Tesla doesn't, and because they don't have such an agreement, workers don't have the right to strike. In the US, you only have the right to strike if you have a collective bargaining agreement. Of course, you can go an unlawful strike, but if you want to have a formal right to strike, you have to have a collective bargaining agreement. But in Sweden, you have the right to strike always as an employer, employee, if you, of course, I mean, there are rules you have to comply with, but you don't have to have a collective bargaining agreement. In fact, you can strike in order to get a collective bargaining agreement. So you can submit an employer to various types of conflict measures. Strikes is one of those, but you can use others, like blockades, for instance, which are very common in the ongoing strike against Tesla, to force an employer to sign a collective bargaining agreement. And that's what's happening in this case. So Tesla doesn't have a collective bargaining agreement anywhere in the world and in Sweden, what happened in october 2023 is that the workers in Tesla repair shops got fed up finally and demanded that their union, which is called if Mattel it's an industrial union, demanded that their union call a strike against Tesla in order to force Tesla to sign a collective bargaining agreement. So they did, and since then, I think 13 or 14 other unions in Sweden and in Norway, Denmark and Finland have joined the strike through so called solidarity action, or sympathy action subjects. Called so they are using other, yeah, mostly blockades, which aren't really strikes, but they are ways of targeting services and products that a company needs. So for instance, the cleaners union have stopped cleaning in Tesla repair shops, the transportation workers have stopped unloading Tesla from Swedish ports and also in Norway, Denmark and Finland. So Tesla has to bring in their cars through trucks from from Germany. The electricians unions have stopped maintenance and installation of Tesla superchargers and so forth. So there are many types of solidarity action which are used in this case, and that's also illegal in the United States. So these are power resources that unions have in Sweden, that unions and some other countries don't.

Fredrik Gertten: 7:53

Leilani, this is kind of cool, and I know your your first job as a lawyer was to work for a labor union. So how do you see I can see the smile coming up and Chairman tells you about all these different solidarity actions happening.

Leilani Farha: 8:08

I worked for a union side labor law firm. So the law firm was representing unions in disputes, mostly, not exclusively, but mostly car industry. So I've been to, you know, the Ford Motor plant, and sat in on arbitrations and very interesting. I have to say, the strike is amazing, and the unique situation they're in where the strikers are actually backed by union. It's not that they're trying to unionize. So they have a certain strength there, because they have the unions. They have the their back is supported by the Union, but where I get tingly is when I hear about supportive strikes like that, solidarity, understanding that we're all in this together. I love that, and we're starting to see movements like this in many conflict situations around the world, where it's the solidarity that's so important, and people starting to realize, actually, we are all connected, right? We are connected. I mean, in that case, it's a very close connection, but still, it's pretty amazing. I think I heard that the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund has gotten involved. Is that? Right? Herman,

German Bender: 9:18

yeah. I mean, there have been since the strike started, there have been a number of developments and other stakeholders that have tried to push Tesla in other ways than dispute mechanisms like strikes and the Northern Norwegian sovereign wealth fund, which is, I think, the world's largest, which owns a substantial part of actually the World's stock value. And I think it's like 1% of the value of the world's entire stock markets. It's a lot of money. Yeah, they have a lot of oil money, and they also own quite a substantial part of Tesla and the CEO of the Norwegian wealth fund. I don't remember his name, but he's pretty close to Elon Musk. He. Did an interview. I think it was on X but you can find it on YouTube with Elon Musk, where he asked Elon about the strike. And Elon said, this was around April 2024 and Elon Musk said, No, things are going well in Sweden. It's, I think the storm has blown over, something like that. He said, which was not true. I mean, this was like half six months into the strike, and the strike is still going on, but the wealth fund and other institutional investors like pension funds have made formal demands at Tesla stock owners meetings to include some type of clause in Tesla's global policies, to make it more difficult for Tesla to do business and company, or, let's say, to persecute union organizing and to combat it, Tesla already has some kind of clause stipulating that in their global policies, they have something saying that they have to comply with local regulations or something like that. But the way Tesla interprets that so far is that as long as they don't break any laws. And you know, that's also debatable whether they do or not in some countries, but as long as they don't break any laws, they can operate in the way they see fit. But the thing in Sweden and in the Nordic countries in general, I would say, is that there are very strong social norms that are really important for the labor market model to work. For instance, it's not illegal here to bring in strike breakers when a strike occurs. So if a union calls a strike and workers don't go to their job anymore, then in order to keep operations going, an employer can bring in other people who do the job that the strike and workers no longer do. Right? That's not illegal for an employer to do, but it's strongly against old norms. And you know, in most I would say in most countries,

Fredrik Gertten: 11:55

that's the worst people on the planets. Yeah, they're called scabs sometimes. And where do they bring them in from?

German Bender: 12:04

Well, from different repair shops in Sweden, but also from, I think, 14 or so European countries. There was a report on the Swedish union magazine about this a couple of months ago, and they found that a bit more than 40 workers from 14 different European countries have been brought in. And, you know, back in the day, that used to be, I mean, like 70 or 100 years ago, when companies did that, that usually caused a lot of violence. So people start, you know, fought and beat up scabs or strike breakers. Sometimes they were killed. We, we have

Fredrik Gertten: 12:40

a story here of the harbor of Malmo 1908 there was a ship of British scabs and was set on fire. There was they planted the bomb, yeah, and there were some people dying, and the people who did it went to prison. But there was such a big solidarity movement around all over Europe for these workers to be free. So in the end, they got liberated. And the guy who did it, he became, became really old, so I met him several times. Anton Nilsson was his name. So it was like, so it was, for a long time, a very strong memory in Swedish history of don't come here and destroy our solidarity, the solidarity, yeah, so it's, it's deep. And of course, the collective bargaining treaty is nothing radical. It's like, I mean, all the big Swedish export companies had it forever, and they also find it practical when they go to open a factory in Mexico, wherever it's good to talk to the counterpart, yeah.

German Bender: 13:41

I mean, that's a very strong norm around that in Sweden, as you say, most companies have it. I think around nine out of 10 workers in Sweden have collective bargaining agreements. So around 90% of the workforce are covered by collective bargaining agreements. And if you look at companies the size of Tesla in Sweden, and it should be said that Tesla isn't a big company in Sweden, it has around 300 employees because we don't have any factories here. We only have repair shops. The only car manufacturing in Europe that Tesla has is a factory outside Berlin, which is really large, but otherwise they have sales, repairs and charging infrastructure. But companies of that size are almost 100% you would say, unionized in the US, but here it means that they have collective bargaining agreements. So Tesla is a really exceptional case here that they are, you know, refusing to abide by any norms, as long as they, from their point of view, don't break any laws. So what they're doing is trying to sort of go against all norms and all unwritten rules that make the Swedish model work.

Leilani Farha: 14:47

Yeah, I so I heard Elon Musk say that part of why he doesn't like unions and presumably collective bargaining agreements, is because he doesn't want to create. A Lord versus peasant atmosphere or environment. But as someone who's done a little bit of work with unions, it's the opposite. In fact, collective bargaining is what eliminates, or helps to reduce the Lord versus peasant environment, and it's so typical of I mean, he's a libertarian, I suppose, but it's so typical of a libertarian to switch the narrative that way, right? Like, what is it that the workers are wanting through a collective bargaining agreement that they don't feel they get without it at Tesla,

German Bender: 15:41

well, I mean, I completely agree. If you want to reduce the Lord's and peasant dimension, you could start by reducing income inequality with large birds, specifically in their company. Like, you know, his workers aren't the ones having, like, $400 billion fortune. That creates a lot of some peasant situation, yeah.

Leilani Farha: 16:01

Well, then, I mean, it's Sweden. I mean, I don't think Sweden is a country that you just said. 90% of employees have a collective bargaining agreement. I think Sweden isn't known as a place of gross inequality, no. So what is he talking about Lord and peasant in the Swedish Yeah. I mean,

German Bender: 16:22

I think what they're asking for is guarantees of wage increases which they don't have. If they don't have collective bargaining agreement, if they don't have an agreement, then it's completely at the discretion of managers to decide who gets a pay raise and who doesn't They want better insurances. So insurance policies that are, you know, it's sort of a package that the collective bargaining agreements grants all employees and that they now have, but they they're not as good, and they're not not as generous as the collective bargain ones are. For instance, pensions schemes are sick leave or stuff like that. And they also want to say in how the companies run, and they can, to some extent, influence that through Swedish labor law, but they have more recourses to bargain with their employer if they have a collective bargaining agreement on issues and that, I think, is the thing that Elon Musk is most opposed to. So the cost for a collective bargaining agreement, at least in Sweden, would be almost insignificant, because Tesla only has like, 300 employees here, they might be afraid of some type of contagion effects, so that if they would sign an agreement here, other countries where they have more employees would demand it, for instance, Germany or the United States, and that would be more costly. And that's not an insignificant reason, but I think this influence reason is much more important. He doesn't want to let anyone else decide, or at least even influence how the companies run. He may be a libertarian in some sense, but I would say that he's more an authoritarian, so he wants to have unchecked power on everything he owns. And, I mean, what we're seeing now in the US is on other things as well.

Fredrik Gertten: 18:05

And he believes, I mean, I think that's a part of this, the tech billionaires, that they've been pumping themselves all the time, of being the these great individuals who are saving the world, who are changing the world, and that's been a part of the success is being selling themselves as these amazing figures. And for a long time, people saw them as saviors. I mean, Elon Musk was of many progressive people loved because he confronted the fossil industry and he was bringing something new in. So his issue is that he he also believes that he knows best all the time. He is smarter and the smartest guy in the room should decide that's his issue. And then then he works with Trump, who also probably think that he is smart

German Bender: 18:57

and not the smartest guy in the room.

Fredrik Gertten: 18:59

No, no. And that's the, that's the, that's what we all are up against right now, very, very evil people who are shaking the world, and especially the poor people of the US are now really, they can see their the government being destroyed, which is like, it's not a small thing. So German, just to wrap up, the Swedish strike it's been on for since October 23 When will this end?

German Bender: 19:33

Nobody knows. I mean, Elon Musk hasn't shown any sign or interest in compromising, and the unions have invested so much prestige, and they have so much public support that it's, it's hard to see that any of the sites would back down. So far, it's kind of a stalemate. Nothing really happens.

Fredrik Gertten: 19:53

And the Swedish unions have money to keep this going, so it's not, I mean, yeah,

German Bender: 19:57

in terms of money, and it's not an issue. I think. Like the principal union here, if Mattel, they have a conflict fund of, like, around a billion dollars so they can go on if they have to pay

Leilani Farha: 20:10

strikers. Are the strikers are paid. Yeah,

German Bender: 20:13

they're paid. They're paid more than their wage. They're paid 130% of their wage to compensate for pensions and vacation pay. Wow, but, I mean, it's a very small cost for the Union. So it's not a, it's not an economic issue at all. It's more of a, I think, a public relations issue. If the public support would wane, or if other unions would start, you know, backing down their support, that would maybe have an effect. There was

Fredrik Gertten: 20:39

a story recently of a lot of people from Stockholm in Tesla who went to the mountains to go to ski with their kids, and then there were, like 200 Tesla stuck at one of these superchargers that didn't work because the because of the blockade. So they were standing there in the snow,

German Bender: 21:02

I heard that, and there was a, there was a Tesla manager who went out on x and said, This is the fault of the strike. You know, we would have installed 100 more superchargers around Sweden, if. But on the other hand, Tesla has repeatedly said during the strike that they haven't been affected at all, that everything is business as usual, they're going on as if nothing happened. So they can't have both stories at the same time, you know? So I would say that, yeah, there's been some disruption, but not so far enough to shake Tesla, no and

Fredrik Gertten: 21:34

and we can see that the sales are going down all over Europe. I mean, Sweden, the sales at least went down 50% in January this year, Canada

Leilani Farha: 21:42

is suggesting huge tax on Tesla because of the tariff threat against our country. That'll have a huge impact. Yeah,

German Bender: 21:51

I would hope the European Union does the same. But I think that has more to do with Fredrik, what you were saying about Elon Musk's role in the United States current administration than with the strike, unfortunately, because during the first two years of the strike, 23 and 24 Tesla was the model Y, which is one of their cars, was the most sold car in Sweden. So the strike didn't really affect their sales. But now, in the past, I think maybe two months, Tesla's car sales have taken us a big hit across the world. And I think that has more to do with his, you know, very weird, sort of strong right turn that he's taken recently. So hopefully that will affect them more, and maybe, maybe could lead to, you know, questions being asked within Tesla about whether Elon Musk should be the CEO going forward,

Fredrik Gertten: 22:49

yeah, because he is, in one way, also destroying his own company. Yeah, for sure, destroying the brand of his company. Because we can see here in Sweden now Tesla owners will have a sticker on. I bought this car before Elon

Leilani Farha: 23:05

went crazy.

Fredrik Gertten: 23:09

Because, I mean, and I, just before this show started, I went, I saw a Finnish newspaper writing that Tesla owners are afraid to get their their cars sabotaged by activists, you know, so it's, it's no fun to drive a Tesla suddenly, yeah,

Leilani Farha: 23:25

for sure. I mean, I'm looking at them very differently. Even here now in my neighborhood, there's so many Teslas, and I'm looking at them now like, man, even when I'm on X, I'm still on x, and I don't tweet very or whatever. I don't tweet very often or post very often anymore, but I'm still on it, and I feel nauseous every time I go on. I'm wondering, Herman, if you think that that there could be a new kind of solidarity for the strikers in Sweden, because I think we're what we're seeing Elon do in the United States with the government workers. USAID workers is an indication of how he views everyday working people, which is with disregard, complete disregard for the disruption that he's causing to their lives and livelihoods. So I just wonder, is it a moment maybe where there could be some kind of global support? Yeah,

German Bender: 24:29

that's, I mean, it's, it's so difficult not to be disheartened by everything that's going on, because I've written a lot about this strike since it started, and I wrote an article in The Guardian about a year ago, a little more than a year ago, where I tried to argue, sort of, I thought, you know, maybe this could reach musk, somebody he knows might read The Guardian. It's not unlikely. And I try to argue in terms of, you know, saying that he shouldn't view Swedish unions as the enemy. They are very, very cooperative. And constructive. They're not combative as other unions in some other countries. They really try to work with companies and so forth, you know, and operating as company in Sweden would be much easier if we sign a collective bargaining agreement, and that is breaking all norms. And you know, that's really frowned upon by almost everyone in Sweden. But I wouldn't write that article today, because, in fact, I think that breaking norms, getting people upset, going against the rules, it that's that's part of the thing for musk. I mean, he sees that as a compliment. If you say something like that to him, if you say you're doing it, you're doing the opposite of what everybody would expect you to. You're breaking all norms. You're going against the grain here, he would say, yeah, that's disruption. That's what I do. So, you know, it's hard to be hopeful disruption.

Leilani Farha: 25:49

I call it imperialism, but yeah,

German Bender: 25:53

authoritarianism, yeah. I mean, and solidarity, yeah, of course. I mean, I think when I've spoken about the strike outside of Sweden, I've almost always been met with enthusiasm. And you know, hope that people say, Oh, wow, you have these regulations that allow unions to issue solidarity strikes, and you have such a high collective bargaining coverage. And you know, companies abide by the labor market rules and so forth. People generally view this as a good thing. And there have been, you know, shows of support from the UAW, the United Auto Workers in the United States, and eager metal in Germany, which is Swedish unions, Sister Union and other international union organizations. Have, you know, rhetorically or vocally express support with a strike. But, I mean, does that affect Elon Musk? I doubt it. And I would even go so far to say that he is sort of, maybe even amused by it, or, you know, triggered.

Fredrik Gertten: 26:54

I don't know if he's ready to lose Tesla. If I don't, it's hard to know, because at some point he's destroying, I mean, his own. Of course, he is the hero of somebody. But if you ask around the European governments now, how many do you think, I mean, conservative social democrats, whoever will say, Oh, Elon Musk is a great guy. I mean, most people now will say, Oh, my God, he turned out to be a fascist, and you can see the apartheid roots in whatever he's doing, because he's South African. So I think there is a lot of I'm not, yes, you also saw it Herman, that the former Swedish Prime Minister, the conservative COVID, has been very, extremely outspoken on both Trump and Elon Musk. So you in some way, there is a new coalition of voices coming out against the weirdness and the craziness of Trump and musk. So somewhere there must be, I mean, it's the possibility of forming some kind of resistance to the craziness. Of course, they are pushing everybody. So I know you. You wrote something about that. You think that maybe Trump will push the Swedish government to help his friend Elon Musk. I don't know if that's possible, but, I mean, so of course, they are. They are trying to threaten people there. I mean, we saw the face of the King of jordania the other day when he's been there. I mean, he's, he's obviously good. They are good at, like, insulting people or or scaring the shit out of people. But how far can that go till people say, Okay, I'm not taking this. You know, we are many not taking this. And how will that resistance look like? I'm really curious. I think it's interesting in some way. I

German Bender: 28:43

do too, and I think from our perspective, I mean, I'm saying you and I in Europe, because we don't really know yet what the European response will be. I mean, I'm saying to what's going on in United States right now, and I think that it's important to have as unified response as possible, because the risk is that countries will go on their own and try to get as good a deal with the United States as they can manage. And that's, I think that's a strategy that benefits Trump, and he would do that. He will probably do the same. Maybe he will do broad tariffs against the United European Union, but he will also target individual countries to try to, you know, cause fissures, and try to force countries to bargain with him individually. And I think that a unified European response would be much, much more effective in terms of resistance, right? Because, you know, what can Sweden do on our own against the United States? Not much.

Leilani Farha: 29:41

I actually think there should be a global response to him. I think all the countries have to come together. You look at the position South Africa is in taking such a principled response, right? They said they don't care. They basically told Trump to F himself and he can do whatever he wants to South Africa. But. Are not going to play ball, but they shouldn't be left on their own in that position, right? I mean, they're taking a big, big hit. It's already a country that's struggling, especially well. Fredrik knows much more about that than I do. He's been there, spent much time there. I think apartheid is still strong there. Economically, yeah, global, global alliance against Trump. One of the things I was disappointed was I didn't think Canada and Mexico really worked together. At least it didn't seem like they were really working together when we were both threatened with the tariffs. I mean, Mexico made a move first. Luckily, Canada stayed strong. But

German Bender: 30:38

yeah, and that's something like something that is what I'm worried about in Europe. But yeah, I mean, yeah, I agree a global front would be even better. I heard somebody like floated the idea of Canada becoming a member of the European Union. You know, that would be a formal way of going. You know, unifying even more. But even if it's like global campaigns creating opinion against what's going on that would be helpful, as we say. Leilani, do you want to come

Leilani Farha: 31:06

in? I would like to be a member of the European Union, absolutely. And I could get away from this terrible winter.

Fredrik Gertten: 31:15

That's climate change. That's something else. Not my friend. You know,

Leilani Farha: 31:19

it wouldn't change my climate, no. But I can have interest. We have interest here as well. Not like here, my friend, well, maybe in the north, in Sweden, yeah,

Fredrik Gertten: 31:29

yeah. So anyway, it's, I think it's interesting. We have this small strike ongoing for such a long time, there is already kind of example of resistance. And when, I mean, there is a big factory in Germany, and of course, if that starts to organize better, I mean, things can change. And I think, what do you think about, I mean, you know a lot about the unions in Europe. Can the unions create resistance together? Because they're also affected. Of all this is happening their members,

German Bender: 32:03

yeah, definitely. And that's something I've been puzzled by, actually, because there are ways of I mean, of course you can have PR campaigns and so forth, boycotts, you know, that could be used more. But there are also formal ways, formal legal recourses, and they haven't been used that much yet. As I mentioned, unions in Norway, Denmark and Finland have have called solidarity strikes with the Swedish Union, but they could do that in Germany as well. From what I understand, at least, it's not entirely clear that they couldn't. So that could be tried, and there are other countries that also have solidarity mechanisms. They're not equally regulated everywhere. And I think maybe no other country the world has so permissive labor law in terms of solidarity strikes, as Sweden does. But there are, there are many countries that do have that option. So I think there are still things to do. Yeah,

Fredrik Gertten: 33:03

in the history of the labor unions, there always been a chant of international solidarity is the way to change the world and and so is this a moment where unions globally could be a force? Do you think who would take a lead in that if, if that would happen. I'm just speculating, but it's kind of interesting, because the unions are, as you see, the Swedish Metal Workers Union have $1 billion in in the conflict safe, you know. So, I mean, they're not weak, no,

German Bender: 33:37

at least in Sweden, they're not. In some countries, they are, I mean, in the US and in Canada as well, I think they're not very strong individually. They're strong organizations, but in terms of the entire labor market, they are very small. And I think unions are, I mean, it's in many times of historic disruption, of authoritarian rulings, then unions have almost always been one of the first targets when dictators take power, one of the first thing they do is run up union leaders and shoot them or deport them or jail them. And you can see it in this case as well. I mean, one of Elon Musk's primary targets are unions. He really, really doesn't like them. It's obvious that they have to be a key part of any resistance to this. So I mean, if you don't, if you don't just understand it from history or from learning about how unions work today, you can just look at who you know, Elon Musk and Donald Trump's targets are, well, unions, so it's obvious that they are, you know, forced to be reckoned with. They pose a threat, yeah?

Fredrik Gertten: 34:46

Leilani, you You see, a much even bigger resistance coalition. Can you tell me about your thoughts about that?

Leilani Farha: 34:56

You mean with respect to what's happening in the US, not

Fredrik Gertten: 34:59

only. Not, yeah, not only mass movements, also legal,

Leilani Farha: 35:04

yeah. I mean, there, there is a way in which we do have to start understanding that there's so many different ways to resist, and that even if we're taking different ways, using different skills from different sectors, we're all resisting together. So whether it's academics or people who are researchers at think tanks or journalists or grassroots movements, there is a way in which we need to start connecting the different ways that we're resisting a little bit more than we already do. I'm not saying we don't do that. I mean, I know.

Fredrik Gertten: 35:35

Are you including film? Filmmakers? Oh, yeah, filmmakers,

Leilani Farha: 35:39

documentary film, actually, seriously, documentary films are playing a very important role right now. I feel I mean every day, someone saying to me, have you seen this doc? Have you seen this doc? Have you seen this doc as a way of spreading information, knowledge, and especially important for us to somehow reach young people. In one podcast I was listening to about this issue, about the strike against Tesla in Sweden, there was a comment like, some young people don't even know what unions are in this world. They don't know what a collective bargaining looks like, like, what that is and why that's so important, and that part of union driving has to be reaching young people. But that's so true about and we need young people for our movements. We know that because they have the energy, that's for sure. They have the the raw feelings necessary. We need

Fredrik Gertten: 36:34

everybody. But of course, we also need young people.

German Bender: 36:38

Yeah, and I think just a small comment on that is that you know about documentary filmmakers or activists or journalists, they are also targets. When people do films about these people, they risk getting sued. They risk getting sued. I've been sued. I mean, they risk getting their distributors shut down or threatened. I mean, these people know that intimidating works, and they have so much money that they can keep, you know, numerous legal processes going on, even if they know that they will fail, people will back down because, you know, an independent filmmaker maybe doesn't have the money to hire lawyers, even if it's very likely that they will win in the end. You know, it's very big risk. And maybe you know more about that. I

Fredrik Gertten: 37:25

was actually interviewed in the US podcast about this pipeline in South Dakota and that struggle where the pipeline company has hired the same lawyers who came after us in bananas case, Gibson Dunn would like the most aggressive law firm in the US, and they are now attacking both Greenpeace, but they're also attacking a media collective who has been reporting on this. And it's really serious. Of course, it's very difficult to to have those assholes on top of you. It's it's really ugly, so I understand that it's serious, and that's why, also solidarity is important. It's also important to, well, to support people who are under pressure and to talk about it. And of course, when we then talk about films, you should use the film, show the films, tell your friends about the films. My last film breaking social. You can now see it on the platforms in the Nordic countries of the broadcasters, in the Netherlands, in Switzerland, in Germany, France, Italy, around Europe. You can see the it's on TV or on the broadcasters platforms. Or you can watch it through us. And you can if you are, if you're in the US and Canada. You can book the film through good dogs and make your own showings. You can do that Leilani in your town, like Oxfam did a few weeks ago, in my absence, in your absence, so we can fight back, and we will, of course, Herman and Leilani. Thank you very much for being on Pushback Talks, and I think we will be like the resistance podcast that will be our we will be needed, and we will keep finding people like you, German and others too, who are can tell us and give us inspiration about what's going on. It's not hopeless. Yeah.

German Bender: 39:19

Thank you for inviting me. I didn't really see myself as part of their resistance, but I'm honored to be seen as one. So I'm glad to be be a member, absolutely.

Leilani Farha: 39:29

How else do movements have the knowledge they we need researchers. We need analysis think tanks. So thanks for your

Fredrik Gertten: 39:38

work. That's how it is. Leilani, so you're walking your dog in the snow, or what's the plan?

Leilani Farha: 39:43

I already walked the dog. Oh, no, I'm going on vacation next week, so I need to get ready for that. It's laundry, laundry, laundry.

Fredrik Gertten: 39:52

Okay, that sounds like a nice plan. So please shortly tell our listeners how we fund the show so

Leilani Farha: 39:59

we don't fund the show. But we hope our listeners will, yeah, patreon.com you can go to patreon.com and look for Pushback Talks, and you can just support us with a few euros, dollars a week, a month a year.

Fredrik Gertten: 40:15

Yeah, it helps. I mean, that's also a way of being solidarity. Is to support work like this, because it's true. Like Leilani says, we don't make any money out of it, and of course, we have costs related to producing the show. So if you can help us and keep resisting and also keep smiling

Leilani Farha: 40:34

and tell your friends about Pushback Talks Exactly. Subscribe,

Fredrik Gertten: 40:39

comment, tell your friends. Thank you very much. Thanks. Fredrik, thank you. German, thanks.

Kirsten McRae: 40:49

Pushback Talks is produced by WG film. To support the podcast, become a patron by going to patreon.com/pushback talks follow us on social media at make underscore the shift and push underscore the film. Or check out our websites, maketheshift.org, pushthefilm.com, or breakingsocialfilm.com