PUSHBACK Talks

To the UN! Advocates Hold UK Accountable

• WG Film • Season 8 • Episode 14

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Fredrik and Leilani sit down with Sam Freeman (Head of Research and Advocacy at The Shift) and Dominika Leitane (Legal Officer at Opportunity Green) who reveal how they took the UK government to the United Nations—and won!

Get an exclusive behind-the-scenes look at the UN review process as Sam and Dominika break down exactly how they navigated this powerful accountability tool to tackle the twin crises of housing injustice and climate emergency. They share their journey from initial submission to celebration when the UN Committee adopted their recommendations.

This eye-opening conversation pulls back the curtain on international law in action, showing how everyday people armed with determination and strategy can use these tools to hold governments accountable. Sam and Dominika offer practical insights into how these seemingly complex international mechanisms can become game-changing tools for creating a more just and sustainable world.

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Kirsten McRae:

Big systems of power shape all our lives, yet most of us rarely see how these institutions work or how the public can influence them. The United Nations may seem distant, but it offers real tools for holding governments accountable. On today's episode of Pushback Talks, Fredrik and Leilani welcomed Sam Freeman, head of research and advocacy at the shift and Dominic letane, legal officer at opportunity green, together, they've taken action by bringing the connected crises of housing and climate directly to the United Nations Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. This important United Nations review process happening once every four years creates a chance for civil society to challenge governments on their human rights duties. Sam and Dominica take us behind the scenes of international accountability, showing how these systems are used to hold states accountable. This is Pushback Talks.

Fredrik Gertten:

I'm Fredrik Gertten and I'm the filmmaker.

Leilani Farha:

And I'm Leilani Farha, and I'm the advocate.

Fredrik Gertten:

And this is again, the resistance podcast, Pushback Talks. We found out that Pushback actually means something, doesn't it Leilani?

Leilani Farha:

Of course, it does.

Fredrik Gertten:

Yeah, we have to Pushback.

Leilani Farha:

We do. We have no choice, especially at this point in our contemporary history. It

Fredrik Gertten:

is kind of a, let's call it interesting. What's going on in the world? I mean, you have your neighbor up there, the Americans, they seem to be No, not them. I mean the junta that is running the country now, or, like, creating a lot of problems for you. In Canada, we have another neighbor here called Russia, which is like killing a lot of people around and invading other countries. It's kind of threatening. I'm here in Malmo, you know, we look out to the straight here between Denmark and Sweden, we can see the Russian warships passing by. So it's it's for real.

Leilani Farha:

It's for real. One sweet, sad thing. I was in the US recently, and people would ask me, where are you from? I would say Canada. And they would immediately apologize for the behavior of their government. Pretty interesting. And I was in a state that is considered a red state. It went red in the last election, voting for Trump, and still, people were really embarrassed by the treatment of their longtime neighbor, long time ally friends. I mean, Canada, we and the US were always back and forth over the border. I lived right on the border for many years. That's where I had my kids down in a city called Windsor right my Skyline was Detroit. Some of my best friends worked in the States. They drove every day. I've been calling it governance by hatred. That seems to me to be the motivation hatred of people, certain people,

Fredrik Gertten:

and also they really want to be on control of the storytelling of everything, so they send out all these provocations and but it's kind of, can they win in the long run when they create so many enemies? What if all of us start to work together and see, oh, we have friends, you know, we have values. Let's focus on what we can do together. I think it's the only way, yeah, and maybe that's also what this podcast can do, is to bring up people who do stuff, bring up people who fight back. And we have two guests today who are actually are fighting back. And interestingly enough, two young advocates who are taking the UK government to court in the UN I'm just a filmmaker, so I can be sloppy. You cannot. But welcome to Pushback Talks. Dominique Leilani from opportunity green, based in London, and Sam Freeman, who we had before. And Sam is the head of research and advocacy at the shift this amazing organization, founded by our friend and the co host of this podcast, Leilani Farha. Leilani say something beautiful about these two young advocates. I

Leilani Farha:

am very excited that Sam and Dominica are joining us, taking up the reins of advocacy and going to the United Nations. Pretty cool. It's

Fredrik Gertten:

pretty cool. And you can, of course question if the UN has a role now when international law is kind of devaluated, but I think that law and order has some kind of meaning. But tell us, what are you up to? Sam and Dominica, tell us what is happening.

Dominika Leitane:

I mean, first and foremost, thanks for having us here. Very, very excited to be on the podcast. Just to flag that. The UN is, of course, not a court which is important for us to distinguish between kind of legally binding jurisprudence that goes on in the court and the United Nations treaty body, which treaty bodies, rather, which deal with the international human rights law order, however, whose concluding observations and other documents are not necessarily legally binding. Nevertheless, we did go to the UN and the reason why we did is that there's a fundamental connection between two massive crises that are happening in the UK, and those two crises are the climate crisis and the housing crisis. And we believe first and foremost is that these two crises are connected because they have immense adverse effects on human rights, not only in the UK, but internationally. But let's just focus on the UK for now. However, what's really, really interesting is that these two crises have some solutions in which they overlap. One of the main solutions is increasing the energy efficiency of the building stock, the UK is quite notable in that it has one of the least energy efficient housing stocks in all of Europe. And this really contributes to the kind of housing crisis through issues such as fuel poverty, which affects marginalized communities a lot more than it does the rest of us, unfortunately, and it also contributes really, really adversely to climate change. Because, of course, houses that are less insulated release more greenhouse gas emissions. This is a problem that is focused on the housing sector. However, for example, the reason why we didn't take this matter to a court in the UK, among other reasons is the fact that courts are reluctant to impose specific policy measures upon the UK. So for example, if we take the UK's obligations to reach specific climate targets, the courts have been quite reluctant to impose measures in specific sectors. So for example, they will say you need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but they won't say you need to specifically kind of improve the energy efficiency of housing, necessarily. So we saw this kind of gap in sector specific enforcement mechanisms, which is why we decided to engage with this kind of UN treaty body procedure. We also thought it was really, really great to see an area where the cause of climate change aligns so nicely with the just transition cause, because that's not necessarily always the case. Whereas in this situation, what's best for the environment and the climate is also what's best for vulnerable communities and human rights. It's

Fredrik Gertten:

very interesting, and you're taking on the climate and housing, two really important things. Sam, can you explain for us who are not so legally educated as you, two or the three of you, what is the practice? You're going, you're going, I have never gone to you and withdoneja, I've been there filming. But how do you go about this for

Sam Freeman:

sure. So it's a pretty long process, if you look at it in total. I mean, it started, I think, for the UK in 2022 and the process, maybe to go back even further, is that every four years, I think Leilani might know better than I do, countries come up for review, which means that the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which is the committee that was established by the UN to be the body that overseas. Stop

Fredrik Gertten:

a little bit here. So a country is up to review, how often you do say,

Sam Freeman:

I think every four years. Is that right? Dominica,

Dominika Leitane:

every four or five years, I believe, Yeah,

Leilani Farha:

correct. But they get, they get delayed, just so you say, so it's really ends up being more like every seven years. Yeah,

Fredrik Gertten:

okay. But then you can see, okay, the UK Government is coming up. Now we're going to act is, this is what we are doing? Yes,

Sam Freeman:

exactly. So you know which countries are coming up, you can kind of see it in their schedule. And there's a whole process they go through where the country will submit a report or a particular date that will be considered by the committee who will pose a list of questions to the country.

Fredrik Gertten:

I want to I want to know how you and Dominique, did you meet in the bar? Did you have a dream? How did you how did you come up with this kind of I was going to go after the UK Government?

Sam Freeman:

Well, we met at an event in was in Leuven in Dominique in Belgium. We met at an event in Belgium, so there was a bar, and there might have been drinks involved, actually, but we, I can't remember, the shift had been kind of planning to engage more heavily with with these processes, and was kind of feeling it out a little bit. And then I met Dominica at this event, and we got talking about the fact that opportunity Green was already engaged in this process on the UK. They'd already been thinking about this submission. I think they joined a bit of a coalition, or kind of party to a coalition. And obviously I asked Dominique if we could take part, because we obviously have that background in this area. We. Know the UN system very well. We know international human rights law very well, so I hope that we'd be able to contribute something decent to a submission that's been made. Dominican opportunity. Greek were very, very graciously accepted. And yeah, we went from there, Leilani,

Leilani Farha:

what did you say? Yay. I mean, I was wanting the shift to move toward using the UN system for this very purpose, this body is made up of independent experts. So it's not government reviewing government, it's independent experts reviewing governments and holding them accountable to the treaties that they've signed and ratified. It is really the only body to do that in a meaningful way around the right to housing, for example, and now we're seeing them move right into the area of climate change as it affects social and economic rights. So I was very gung ho, let's say, and super grateful that opportunity Green was so open to working with us, and I know a couple people on that committee because of my un days, and so it was a really nice fit. I would like to have the conversation about what is legally binding, what's not Is this a court? Is this not a court? It's not a court in any formal sense, but maybe Sam and Dominica can tell us a little bit about what it's like when you actually are trying to hold the government accountable. Because you went off to Geneva, right? You were in a room, presumably with the government. Tell us

Fredrik Gertten:

details, details, is it men and women, or it's only guys did have suit, or how they dressed? It's like, was it formal? In formal? Yeah. Do they like you? Or there's

Dominika Leitane:

a lot to report on that front, we were there for a couple of days. Sam, I think it was three days in total that the review took place. So day one was the meeting between certain committee members and the civil society organizations, and days two and three were the days of actual review, I must say, kind of a little disclaimer. I'm quite Junior in my career. I was at the UN for the first time. I was freaking out. I was having the time of my life. I was just reflecting about how, like, I was doing my master's degree a couple of years ago, learning about the UN, and now I was there, so I might have quite a rosy eyed perspective of it all. And I do apologize for that. Oh,

Fredrik Gertten:

that's nice. I like

Dominika Leitane:

that. Love it. I love it. I must say, I had a great time. I

Fredrik Gertten:

believe that the UN is more important than ever. So it's then it's also good to have have a nice view of being in the UN and think, Okay, this body means something, has meant something and will mean something again. And Sam, who are the guys you're meeting up with? The

Sam Freeman:

committee members? There is, yeah, committee members from all around the world. As Dominika said on the first day, it was kind of a smaller selection of them. So the country rapporteur, who's from Thailand, and then there's committee members from Argentina, I think India and they gather in just quite a small, intimate room to hear from civil society. You each get an opportunity to put a statement, an oral statement to them. It's very short. I think we had one and a half minutes each Dominica to put this oral statement. So you and you have to do it quite slowly, because obviously you want to make your point. But also, I think this translation, so it's a lot to get through. It was a very busy I think it was a record breaking review. I don't think they'd ever received as many submissions from civil society about a country before, so there was a lot of organizations in the room. They had to have two civil society sessions. Is

Fredrik Gertten:

this a new strategy from NGOs that kind of to use the legal way to raise important issues. Are you a part of a bigger trend of something or

Sam Freeman:

I don't think it's a new strategy. The committee process has been used by NGOs for for a long time to engage with governments, kind of directly and put issues to governments directly. But I think there's maybe a bit more organization around economic, social and cultural rights. Now, particularly in the UK, where we have an odd relationship with human rights, in the sense of we have the Human Rights Act, which incorporates the European Convention on Human Rights into domestic law, but that's all civil and political rights. So when people mention human rights in the UK and domestically in the UK, it's automatically just considered to be civil and political rights, rather than economic, social and cultural economic, social and cultural rights. And that's changing a bit. I think people, particularly with kind of economic troubles that we've had recently and cost of living crises, and people are becoming more wise to the fact that they have this whole other tranche of rights that they can rely on and should rely on. The government should be realizing for them, and they've identified this committee and the UN as the vehicle to put those concerns forward. Sorry

Dominika Leitane:

if I may just come in and add to that, I think civil society as a whole is quite engaged in the United Kingdom. Part of that, unfortunately, is the reality that in the UK, engagement with civil society is a lot less likely to be followed. By kind of repercussions, whereas in other states, we might see kind of political persecution and that those sorts of issues, which is why the UK, along with other kind of westernized states, have always had this kind of more active NGO and civil society community.

Fredrik Gertten:

Yeah, I'm curious to see, I mean, you meet this UN committee, but then you have people representing the UK Government in the room. So do they love you, or are they say, Oh God, don't bring us more work.

Sam Freeman:

Well, they're actively quite deferential to you. Well, that you don't, you don't ever meet the delegation. So civil society wouldn't have a direct conversation with the delegation, but we are obviously in the room when they're being reviewed by the committee, and they always they say lovely things about how glad they are to see so many civil society organizations there in the room. Oh,

Leilani Farha:

I think that's interesting, because the way in which I first engaged the UN system, well before I became un rapporteur, was through the committee, through this very committee that Sam and Dominica attended, I worked with both Canadian NGOs holding the Government of Canada accountable, but also many other NGOs from different countries. And in many instances, the only time civil society was ever able to meet with government was in Geneva through that process. In other words, if they were back home and wrote a letter saying I'd like to meet with the Ministry of whatever housing or foreign affairs, they would get no answer, but there they were in the room with government delegates and could actually interact with them in ways that they couldn't back home, which I always found so interesting. And it was, in fact, how I first started meeting government officials in Canada was in Geneva. Oddly, so it's interesting to me that you actually didn't have that interaction with your own government in Geneva, which is maybe the imperialist the you know you're dealing with the Empire, let's face it, so one of the empires,

Sam Freeman:

maybe there would have been opportunities, but the way they set the room up, it's a very, very large room, like a long, kind of rectangular shaped room, and civil society sit at the very back on tables facing the entire room, and the head of the delegation and the head of the committee. It's on a like a raised table at the front of the room, and then the delegation from the UK sit on a central table, and then the committee members sit on tables around the outside, so they're kind of boxed in by the committee members. So it's hard to kind of get to them to have those conversations. You'd have to probably walk over a committee member's desk in order to try and get someone from the Department of Energy. Order.

Leilani Farha:

Can you just describe like, if it was an, like the oral, like, it's like an oral hearing of some sort, right?

Sam Freeman:

Yes, yeah. I mean, it starts with the government giving a statement, an opening statement, as then goes moves on to the country rapporteur, who's just one of the committee members, who's been appointed to kind of lead this process with the with the particular country he gave a statement. And then they break the covenant down into sections so covering different rights. So then there'll be a committee member who's in charge of each section, and they will initially pose questions to the to the country, and then the country will almost immediately respond. I mean, they don't get time to go back and think about their answers. They have to respond straight away.

Fredrik Gertten:

Now I want to fast forward a bit, because I understand you got some kind of response already. You did well, tell us. We

Dominika Leitane:

did incredibly well. I mean, it's hard to think of anything else that we would have wanted from this procedure, and it was evident from the review itself. We were very, very we were really delighted to see that the committee, after both of our oral and written submissions, the committee, was already asking the UK Government repeated questions specifically about the housing sector and specifically about kind of decarbonizing the housing sector and what was being done to kind of raise more money for it, and fuel poverty and financialization and all of those issues. So it was really great to see. And in fact, I believe it was someone from the Equality and Human Rights Commission in the UK who kind of came up to me after because they knew what we were going to submit on, and they said, Oh, well, you must be really happy, because they basically covered everything you wanted. And I was like, Yeah, I couldn't hide it. It was great. So from then, it was already clear that we had succeeded in kind of putting it on the committee's agenda, which was really great. And just the other day, in fact, I think just yesterday, right, the committee has released its kind of concluding observations, which is a written document that sets out the committee's recommendations to the UK of things that they can do to improve the human rights situation, and the committee kind of leaned very heavily towards decarbonizing housing, as well as all of these other issues that we've considered. So it was great. So

Fredrik Gertten:

your country will now start to do better. Sam, you can feel that I made a difference.

Sam Freeman:

I hope it will make a difference. It's tough. I mean, what it enables us to do is have a written document there in black and white that we can use to put pressure on the government. We can say you have been told by the most important committee at the UN covering these rights that this is what you need to do. There's no avoiding it anymore. Their recommendations are incredibly clear. So you need to do this now, and we can now as civil society, both at shift and other civil society organizations, start kind of putting pressure on the government to make these changes, but also start working with them where we can to help them make these changes. You know this is these are big things they need to do, and they need everybody on board doing them. Civil society. I'm not necessarily this is saying, this is the shift. I'm not going to blow our own trumpet that way. But so many organizations that make up civil society are unbelievable experts in in how you make these changes, how you implement economic, social and cultural rights across society. In the UK, so the government needs to work with us and others to implement these recommendations. Leilani,

Fredrik Gertten:

it is I think this is really inspirational. I guess you can see yourself in these two young advocates once upon a time when you started up in the UN World. And hopefully this podcast also can spread this energy that resistance is important, and you can make a difference, even if you have a fascist gang sitting in the Oval Room and insulting people, we can still do stuff. Leilani, yeah,

Leilani Farha:

yeah. I think, I think it was so important that the shift in opportunity green did this at this moment. As I said, I really believe, like you, Fredrik, that we need some kind of international order. And right now, what we have is a set of human rights that have been universally agreed upon by pretty much all states. And the only way for that order to take hold is, if we keep saying there is a legal order, these are human rights, you've signed them in as law, and really breathe life into the processes that exist to hold governments accountable. And that's what Sam and Dominica did, and did so effectively. So you know, I just, I'm really excited the shift. Actually had a strategic meeting, well, a meeting to sort of think, what do we do now in this new world order where everything is chaos, and we actually took a decision that we were going to go back to basics and put the feet of government to the fire and hold them accountable to the human rights they claim to uphold. And so I was so excited that Dominika and Sam went, went ahead, I have a question for Sam. Was there a recommendation that came out of the committee that you were particularly pleased about and particularly surprised about?

Sam Freeman:

I think you know there was because I was jumping to joy after I read it yesterday. Yes, I mean, in the United Kingdom, we have the investment vehicle, real estate investment trusts, and they have been legal in the UK since 2007 and they are a way that a mechanism a lot of investors use to buy housing and run housing and generate profit from housing, and they are not taxed fairly. They are exempt from corporate and income tax on their profits. They have to do a 20% withholding tax, but they're exempt from corporate and income tax on their profits. And as far as I can tell. I've dug back over the concluding observations of the committee since 2007 and I can't see they've ever made this recommendation before, but they made a recommendation that the UK should carry out an assessment of the economic and social impacts that result from this tax treatment of real estate investment trusts. So it's huge. I mean, this is something that we pushed for, both in our written submission and oral submission, and in advocacy we did with committee members during the session, and it's something that other countries have done. Canada did such an assessment and found out they would make considerable savings, net savings, if they taxed real estate interest Investment Trusts fairly. So, yeah, delighted with that one. I think it has the potential to be very groundbreaking in terms of our advocacy in the UK, and forcing the UK to take a position where it generates additional resources in line with its human rights obligations to realize economic, social and cultural rights.

Fredrik Gertten:

Do you think there is like an historic moment right now to actually make the UK Government to move because, I mean, you have, first of all, you have a Labor government more progressive, we hope. But also now in this Canada New World Order, where Europe are more on its own, and maybe you have to show. Clearer to the world that we actually are rights based what we do is actually respecting international law and so on. Do you think you can use that moment? Sure, yeah.

Dominika Leitane:

I think what is great about the UK, for all of its flaws, is that the UK respects rule of law, at least it does so more than some other states, rule of law is something that sets the UK apart. That's why kind of legal services in this country are so renowned and so widely used. And I think that does provide a really, really great platform for us to emphasize anything that has to do with kind of legal obligations and human rights obligations, as mentioned, we do have a new government in power for the first time in more than a decade. So it does feel like there is this kind of opportunity to make a change now, in this moment, and to kind of emphasize our commitment to, once again, the rule of law, human rights, decarbonization, improving the housing stock. Yeah. Exciting. Exciting

Fredrik Gertten:

and good news for all of us, because we are kind of in need of good news and good energy. So it's, it's really cool to have both of you on our podcast. And so what would you send on to other listeners of this podcast that say, Okay, I also would like to go and engage myself. Simon Dominika, have you any good words to young people who are maybe at university now and I'm looking for the way their way in life?

Dominika Leitane:

I would say, just go for it. Just look for opportunities, particularly for people who are at university. I know that universities are quite nourishing environments where there are clubs, there are societies, there are events, there are loads of opportunities to get involved. That's how I started my journey towards this kind of career that I now lead, and that I'm very, very happy with. You start small. And I'm sure that for people who are in very early stages of their career, their education, it might seem like it's really impossible to imagine that kind of stage in your life where you will be able to make a change, and you will be able to have tangible impact, but it's literally just you build it step by step. You do whatever you can do now, even if it's literally just like, sign up for, I don't know, a class on whatever it is that you're passionate about. You might think it's nothing now, but it will lead to further opportunities down the line. For example, when I was doing my master's degree, I did a research project which was part of my degree, which was the only reason why I even knew what the Committee on Economic and Social and Cultural Rights was, is because of that project that I did. And several years down the line, I was able to apply that knowledge in this amazing way with the shift. So I just say, go for it. Go for it. Just, just do it.

Sam Freeman:

I would obviously agree. I think Leilani knows that I got my break during my master's through her so Leilani, I think I've probably maybe mentioned on the podcast before, but I ended up being convinced to do a directed research project by a professor I had when I was doing my master's at the University of Ottawa, and that research project was to help Leilani on one of her reports when she's special operator. I nearly didn't do it. I know I've told you that though I very nearly didn't do it because I was so anxious at the time that I was I can't take on another thing. I can't take on another thing. But I eventually thought, Oh, this is too big of an opportunity to pass up. And I don't think I've stopped working for you since. So I did a little bit little stint somewhere else in the UN but I always came back to doing this work. So I completely agree. Take opportunities for me. Don't be put off by feeling like you don't have the knowledge, the knowledge of human rights, the knowledge of if you care, the knowledge will follow from you giving a shit about people and about communities and about the planet and about equality and outcomes and equity, it'll flow from that. So, yeah, just immerse yourself in the world, and as Dominica said, take the opportunities that are on the table in front of you. Yeah, sorry for swearing as well. I don't know. I've realized. I don't know we

Leilani Farha:

like it. That's all part of the resistance.

Fredrik Gertten:

No worries. Leilani, see,

Leilani Farha:

yeah, but I love what I love what both of you said, Sam and Dominica, because what you're saying is, you know, pursue the issues you care about, find the opportunities, rather than be ambitious. And I think it's funny, because I'm about to give a speech to young people in Vancouver students about human rights and how to get there and how to do it, and that's one of the messages I want to convey. I didn't become un rapporteur because I was ambitious. I became un rapporteur because I cared deeply about housing, and worked and worked and worked and worked to try to make the world a better place for people who have shitty housing, basically swearing too. So just I really loved what you said, and I am really trying to invest in young people right now, because obviously young people are our future, but also you all have more energy than we old folk, right? Fredrik, we're get. Getting tired.

Fredrik Gertten:

No. Talk for yourself, yeah? Well, I'm

Leilani Farha:

getting I am getting tired, and I feel like we need the energy of young people and your wisdom and your ability to see a better future and demand one,

Fredrik Gertten:

yeah, and your anger. Of course, I can say that when I'm out with my my last film breaking social, or maybe with any film I'm out with. But especially with breaking social, a lot of people come up to me and ask, What can I do? I would like to be active. Where should I go? And that's what something I would like to send on use documentary films in your clubs or in your meetings, in or any in your NGOs, because the energy of the film and the conversations after is actually also bringing up this kind of emotions that you need to take on these big challenges. I

Leilani Farha:

so agree with that the I think, also right now, the power of documentary film is really being felt around the world. We see the recent win at the Oscars of no other land, this Palestinian Israeli film, and, you know, it's provoked so many conversations, really interesting and deep conversations around Zionism and liberal Zionism and the plight of Palestinians who are being ethnically cleansed and deported, etc. So and, of course, my experience through push the film, it has changed conversations that I have no doubt about, that it has ignited conversations, and it's changed the way governments are dealing with housing I feel

Fredrik Gertten:

and breaking social is about a kleptocratic network buying elections. So it's kind of timely, timely. So, so if anybody would like to use the film, just contact us and we'll find a way to organize screenings or so on. I really would like that to happen now. I'm a bit frustrated that we have so many progressive friends, but everybody in NGOs are busy with their own internal life, so they don't have time to be solidarity with filmmakers or whatever. I think that should change, because films also bring people together, and sometimes it's good to sit in a room together.

Leilani Farha:

I think we have no choice right now. I think those of us who share values all across continents and divides, we have to come together to assert our vision of the world against those who have a lot of power and are really ruining the world, in my opinion, yeah, openly

Fredrik Gertten:

evil people also, yes, not, not even being embarrassed of being so evil. Yes, friends, lovely to meet you. And I want to follow up. I mean, I think there should be some maybe sign of the houses somewhere in London or in the UK, where change made thanks to Sam and Dominica somewhere.

Leilani Farha:

Yeah. But the work begins, right? Sam and Dominica. Now you'll take these recs and move them. That's the real work. That's the heavy lifting. Yeah, and

Fredrik Gertten:

you had a number you want to share with us before we close. Leilani,

Leilani Farha:

yeah, someone sent me the latest available data from sevilles about the financialization of housing and the global value of residential real estate has now reached almost $290 trillion and even where there's been like dips in value overall over the last three years, it has seen the most significant increase Of all commodities assets, I think, next to gold.

Fredrik Gertten:

So our homes are still the most attractive commodity on the market, and it means for us that it will be more expensive to live in those houses, and the shops will have to put a higher price on the food, because they're also renting spaces and then not talking about my coffee and the wine, you know, will also be more expensive thanks to to those investors. We don't like them anyway. Is that a good way to round up? I can start to think about wine and coffee. Are you good?

Leilani Farha:

It's early here still. I'm going to go the coffee route, not the wine route, but, yeah, that's good. Okay.

Fredrik Gertten:

So thank you very much, and keep up the good work. Thank

Sam Freeman:

you so much. Such a pleasure. Thank you very much. Leilani,

Fredrik Gertten:

how do we fund this podcast? Do we fund the podcast?

Leilani Farha:

We don't fund the podcast. Folks out there listening to us, we need you to fund the podcast. We do not accept advertisements, but if you go to patreon.com and look for Pushback Talks, you can support us. You can give us a few euros, a few a few pounds, a few dollars, a few lira, whatever your currency, share the

Fredrik Gertten:

love, and you can also. Create the podcast, and you can make comments wherever you listen to the podcast, that actually helps us a lot, and you can, of course, always recommend it and share our social media small things, but if you're mighty enemies, you need many friends, so be a friend. Thank you very much, and see you soon.

Leilani Farha:

Thanks Fredrik.

Fredrik Gertten:

bye.

Kirsten McRae:

Pushback Talks is produced by WG film. To support the podcast, become a patron by going to patreon.com/pushback talks. Follow us on social media at make underscore the shift and push. Underscore the film, or check out our websites, maketheshift.org pushthefilm.com, or breakingsocialfilm.com