PUSHBACK Talks

Rights are Never Wrong, Colonialism is

• WG Film • Season 8 • Episode 17

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In this week's episode, Fredrik and Leilani take center stage without guests to candidly explore how we might find connection and hope in challenging times. They reflect on the state of democracy, human rights, and social movements, sharing their personal struggles with making sense of current events and finding ways to make meaningful change in complicated times. 

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Kirsten McRae:

If you've been keeping up with the news, chances are you're feeling overwhelmed, from troubling headlines to rapid social change, making sense of it all can feel nearly impossible. This week's episode brings us back to basics as Fredrik and Leilani take the mic for a candid conversation with no guests, just two friends trying to navigate challenging times. The two share their personal reflections on current events, exploring how we might find connection and meaning when the world feels increasingly divided, they remind us why conversations like these matter, especially when we're struggling to understand our place in history. Listen in as Fredrik and Leilani talk about staying motivated and finding new ways to make meaningful change in complicated times. This is Pushback Talks.

Fredrik Gertten:

I'm Fredrik Gertten and I'm the filmmaker,

Leilani Farha:

and I'm Leilani Farha and I'm the advocate,

Fredrik Gertten:

and this is Pushback Talks, and we are back today with the most special and distinguished guest you can ever imagine in the history of this podcast. The distinguished guest is

Leilani Farha:

Fredrik Gertten,

Fredrik Gertten:

Leilani Farha,

Leilani Farha:

so we're flying solo.

Fredrik Gertten:

We are flying solo. And we do it because we find out that we have so much to talk about. The world is is rocking around, and we talk to friends people are scared and shocked and so depressed and depressed. So our mission here is to try to give each other some comfort, yes, and share some knowledge, and to keep podcasting and dear listener, we need your help to spread the news about our podcast, and you do that by telling your friends and retweeting or sending it on in social media, but also to talk with your friends about it, and of course, also through this traditional rating and commenting, and of course, subscribing to the podcast, it helps a lot. Leilani,

Leilani Farha:

it does help. And yeah, so Fredrik, I was interviewed by a fairly well known journalist in Canada named Adrian Harewood. He's starting his own podcast, and to prepare for the interview with me, he went out and researched, you know, read a lot of things that I've written, and then decided, oh, it looks like she does a podcast, oh, with Fredrik gerten from push, the director of push, which he'd seen. So he started listening to our podcast, and he said he thinks it's a gem and that we need to get it out there more, that it's a fantastic podcast that really more people should be listening to. So I really felt heartened by that, because I trust his opinion. He's, as I said, he's a journalist himself. He's been around the block, and so we do need more support and more love. People can support us through patreon.com look up Pushback Talks and give us a little love and money

Fredrik Gertten:

and Adrian, if you listen. I mean, hi, I love that. You think our podcast is a gem. So if you really want to support it, write a small note in your newspaper and tell people to listen, because then we can quote you, and because we need that kind of a publicized love also. So. So if you have friends who are doing like stories about podcasts, write about us, well, that's the promotional part of our podcast. Was it? That's it. You know, we have to go to the real thing. I was out talking to a group of architects against climate change. It's a grouping that is globally existing also and and we talked about my film breaking social and we also talked a lot about, you know, what is happening on the planet right now. And of course, the feeling of many people is out of stress and depression and stuff. And on top of that, you know, all this, the tariffs, where people start to feel it on their bank accounts. Also, there is a lot of stress out there. And I think it's important to talk about the tariffs, but we shouldn't let them. They are not more important than what's happened on the other side, you know, of that coin, which is human rights under attack, also within the US of A also the attack on the universities, attack on freedom of speech. And I think that's kind of the, maybe the more important game change than even that we are losing money on our pension, retirement savings, the loss of democracy is really scary, isn't it? Leilani,

Leilani Farha:

yeah, and the it's not just freedom of speech, also freedom of assembly, which is really important, the ability of people who are like minded to gather and demand. Better World under siege, not just that even worse, right? I mean, we're, we are in the midst of a genocide, and that is an assault on human life and culture and a way of being and a peoples, and it's all just happening in real time. All of this, everything we've described, with impunity, not just with impunity, with a kind of robustness, with a kind of vigor. Yeah,

Fredrik Gertten:

I think it's, I mean, you can one way say that what is happening now under the Trump regime is everything that the US has been doing forever, or the other Europeans. I mean, it's colonialism, it's genocide, it's attacking people of color, attacking native people. I mean, so it's all in a tradition, but it's suddenly blatantly honest and also blatantly evil in a scary way. And it's like they come out and say, Yeah, we are evil, and we like to be evil. Watch out, because it's very it's very aggressive.

Leilani Farha:

I think that's a really important point. Fredrik, there's continuity here. This is something that has existed for a long time. It's not a Biden Trump divide. No, no, no.

Fredrik Gertten:

But then when at this speech I made, I tried also to say that what we see now is also a backlash, a backlash of of the successes we've had, because there are a lot of movements that had success. I mean, of course we can say the abolition of slavery was a movement that has success, the feminist movement the right to vote 100 years ago, but still, even now, in the after metoo, there's been a lot of success. The Trans and gay movements have been successful and won acceptance, and now they're under attack. And of course, the native people and Black Lives Matter have been able to raise awareness in a new way, and now everything is under attack. So it's, it's under attack also because of its success. I think that's important to see. It's, they attack us because we've been successful. So we should also, we can also feel some kind of pride around that we actually achieved something that they are now attacking. So it's very much about finding a way to be less lonely. You know, we need to kind of, we need to start to see each other and to support each other. And remember, we always talk about this meeting we had at the Castro cinema in San Francisco when we showed push this young lady who came up to me and said, Fredrik, I feel less lonely now when I've seen your film, because she could understand what had hit her wasn't her fault. It was actually a systematic it was a part of the system. And I think to understand that you're not lonely. It can give you strength. So I think that's also what we can we can do with this this podcast,

Leilani Farha:

absolutely, and I certainly have been feeling that a lot for the last 18 months. I think I've always felt a little bit lonely in this work, of course, but I've always been able to find community. It's been a little harder in the last 18 months to find friends, and what you've what I find is new friends, as much as much as, and maybe more than old friends. But it's so important because otherwise it's completely overwhelming. I do myself stumble. I'm stumbling around. I guess I feel a little bit like I'm I'm not settled. I believed that we had many successes, like you said, whether it's, you know, we defeated, we helped to defeat apartheid in South Africa, or, you know, it's

Fredrik Gertten:

an important win. In many ways, it's important win. And it's not only win in in in the sense that a racist team had to leave also win, that a lot of people around the world, and that wasn't only like a left wing movement. It was the churches. It was like, it's like a global community saying this is not right. Every every human being has every grown up citizen had a right to vote. That's what we call democracy, and if you don't have it for all, it's there for no one. So South Africa was extremely important for the generations who grew up in the 70s and the 80s. And of course, it's now a new time in history, and we have new lessons out there. And of course, what is happening in Gaza and Palestine right now is a defining moment for a lot of young people to kind of okay. This is the world we live in. Yeah,

Leilani Farha:

I mean my stumbling around is the. About the successes and what do they mean in the current context, and how do we evaluate those successes in light of what we now know? So for example, you know, it looks pretty easy right now to take away rights that we took for granted in the United States, if you had a green card, a green card was like the goal for so many migrants and refugees to the United States, right? The Green Card meant security. It meant the ability to work in that country, earn a living, and maybe, you know, pursue that elusive dream. And now we know that the green card is meaningless in the context of the current Trump regime, and we people can be disappeared regardless of their legal status in the country, and it may that's why I said I'm stumbling around, because I want to Believe in the successes that we've achieved rights for trans, LGBTQ, the end of apartheid, equality, some kind of equality for women. I want to believe in all of that. I want to believe that we achieved that. But if it can all be taken away, you know, in a snap, it makes me query the depth of those changes and the commitment to those changes.

Fredrik Gertten:

That's you. That's a valuable thought. I think, you know, that's what I'm trying to tell people when I'm out speaking, is that you you have to win the battle. You're the battle is never won for good. You know you have to win. You have to win your rights again and again and again. And I think the feminist movements know that a lot. I mean the fight for the woman's right to their body. I mean, Poland, for example, had the most liberal and abortion rights in in the 70s or 60s in Europe, everybody went there to to get an abortion, and suddenly they became the most anti women country in Europe. I mean, so everything can you can win and you can lose, and you can win and you can lose. And obviously what is happening in the most now extreme things around the Trump regime is obviously a total backlash where we have to fight again to to win our rights so but of course, I also try to understand what's happening in the world by looking into the into the history. And you know, as you know, I've been working in South Africa the last year, and I'm making a film that is very much about the trauma of colonialism and the trauma of apartheid that is living in people. How do you break that? And sometimes it's also like the traumas, the historical traumas living people, but people can't even name it, because it's, you know, it's so pushed back in the history. So in that case, I mean, I'm really interested in colonialism. And of course, when you see what happens in Palestine, you can see the pattern, again, that is like, it's the old face of colonialism. And you can see, also see the reaction of Europe and North America, including Canada, that human rights are important, but not for all. And that is, of course, very painful. And I feel like, like, you know, a liberal Swede who've been kind of been able to travel the world in the in the memory of our old Prime Minister of Palmer, who was then regarded as a friend of the so called Third World, and he tried to build, like a non Alliance countries movement, you know, Sweden, Mexico and other countries together, India, to kind of stand for some kind of a third way between the East Bloc and the West. And I mean, so I for me, I I could come out, and I could be the Friends of the oppressed people in some way, and I can now feel that I going out again. Have nothing to be proud of, because also my country is a part of the same kind of, okay, yeah, but human rights are good in Ukraine, but not in not in Palestine. And, of course, that's shameful, and I'm totally pro Ukraine. I mean, I really have to, I don't want anybody to say that Ukraine has the fault of what's happening in Palestine, but it's, I think we need to talk about colonialism and and we have to need, we need to see that it still exists. I thought we had, in some way, all agreed on that it was wrong, but it's still out there.

Leilani Farha:

Yeah, most certainly is still out there. And I, I mean, I think part of what happened is we saw new forms of colonialism. I mean, certainly push the film we, you know, talked about financialization and. A new form of colonialism. What is so striking about what's happening in Palestine and in Gaza in particular, is it's like an old form of colonialism, all of its brutality, I mean, it is, has been defined as a genocide by all of the leading human rights organizations and UN folks, etc, and plausible genocide by the IC, by the International Court of Justice. So, I mean, it's the it's that revert to complete brutality that I think is also just shocking with impunity. Let's be clear, it's the support for it, not just impunity. There's actual support for this, you know, this reversion, you know. And I mean, I think what we're talking about is so complicated. Because, on the one hand, I think you and I both agree there's a continuity. This is kind of just a continuity of history, and yet, at the same time, it does feel like a backlash. I think that. And I've been reading this book now, very famous book by Omar el aked, who is Egyptian, lived in Canada for many years now, lives in the States, is a journalist, well received journalist, and also an author of fiction and an award winning author of fiction. And he's written a book, the short title of which is one day everyone will have always been against this, referring very much to the genocide in Palestine. And I mean, what he queries is this idea of, like, how much progress have we actually made? Is Western liberalism? Has it always been hollow, morally bankrupt? And I really feel that, as I said, I feel I'm in a dark room to feel my way around this and to understand, like, how is it possible that all these people can get rights, but at the same time, this particular group of people can be denied rights, Palestinians, and I mean, there are other groups of people also being denied rights, the Sudanese, the Congolese, you know, etc, etc. There's

Fredrik Gertten:

a long list. Yeah, you can see the Lakota Indians in the US, and now Greenpeace getting sued big time. I mean, you can see all these patterns everywhere that attack on people. But of course, what happens in Gaza is exceptional, exceptional. I'm also reading a book. It's called the world after Gaza, by Pankaj Mishra. He's an Indian writer that lived partly in London, but it's I was curious, because I like to see the perspective from outside Europe, US, North America, yeah, on, on the days we're living, because we sometimes we get too stuck in our own way of looking at things. And I think overall, you can see in Europe that the support for Palestine has been stronger in Ireland, for example, you know a country with a colonial experience. You know colonial experience means something has value. Because you can, you know, how it impacted your society. And, of course, India has a colonial experience, so it's really interesting. And and he goes, because he started up as an admirer of Israel, as a, you know, he had an image and his bedroom of Moshe Dayan, you know, the old defense minister of Israel. So he was always an admirer. And I think many people have been my younger brother went to Israel to work in the kibbutz, you know, I mean, my ex wife also went to Kibbutz to work. A lot of people have been doing that out of some kind of admiration for Israel and but most of them come back with a different view, and all these people did. And also pine con Israel came back when he visited Israel and occupied territory for the first time, he came back with, this is not so good so, and it's so he walks through the history, and he ends up in what he calls the color line, you know, which I think is also an interesting expression of human rights are important, but maybe not for people with a different skin color, interesting. And if we land there, which is so obvious now with the Trump regime, that they really hit hard against people with a different color of skin, and they can throw them in prison, they can kick them out of the country, they can sell them to El Salvador, you know, without even sentencing them. And they might be locked up there forever, you know, it's like, it's, it's so horrific. And it's also this kind of totally non respect of human lives. They don't really care if they destroy people's lives and families lives, and all the sorrow they they plant in society forever, and all the trauma. And I think it shakes me and I and you know, it's it's so horrible in every individual in this. It, it's, it's, it's horrible,

Leilani Farha:

it's horrible. The that trauma, I think that's very interesting that you're exploring that in your next film, Fredrik, and I look forward to to seeing that, and I think that will resonate with so many people. I think people around the world have been traumatized by what's happening in Palestine, and then every single survivor in Palestine at the moment is more than traumatized. I'm not even sure. People keep saying we don't have the language. Doctors who emerge from Gaza and speak to the media say that they don't have language for to describe both what's happened to people who have not survived the butchery, but also for those who are in, quote, survivors. And this is something that we all in the West will have to reckon with for some time, well, if we allow ourselves to. But one of the things I wanted to talk about, Fredrik, is that you raised is like, what is the status of human rights law? And I mean, you know, my entire career has been based on international human rights law and a belief in it. I was a human rights mechanism for six years within the UN system, when I was the Special Rapporteur, and where I've landed is when I was special rapporteur, for example, I knew that the system was flawed. I knew that the system was weak, that human rights law wasn't being applied to everyone equally. I could see all of that. Now I feel differently. Now I wonder if the system is working as it was intended, which is what I think your author is getting at, that there is this color line, and that the system was always designed to maybe allow a little few human rights protections for a few brown people, but not too many brown people, and certainly not those brown people. And I'm, you know, pointing at Palestinians and and that it was really designed to consolidate the power of the West and to create what is now maybe a facade of democracy and human rights ideals et cetera that the West is promoting. You know,

Fredrik Gertten:

let me stop you for a while, because I totally hear what you say, of course. But for a long time, the UN was something that everybody respected, you know, at least in the official language everywhere. And of course, it's always been a battleground. And the Security Council hardly, never really worked, because there was always this kind of the veto nations, but there was a big respect, I think, right now, the General Secretary of the UN is, he's almost like a communist, you know? He's like, he's a super radical, you know, because he is saying that. I mean, the Pope is a super radical right now, you know? So it's, it's, there is a big shift where the the lion is drawn much further, like to the right, if you want that kind of description, I don't know if that's the way to put it so I think that's, that's the new thing, that's even the flaw system is now being pointed out as, like some lefty woke thing, you know. So the UN is woke, even the even the UN you worked for is woke. But on the other hand, that means, again, that I'm trying to be on a positive note, that it's a lot of we are a lot of people on the woke side, you know, even if they are at command now, they they feel that they can. They feel totally free to do whatever they want, like Trump, you know, I want Canada. I want Greenland. I want the Panama Canal. I want to destroy 1 million lives of immigrants in the US. I want to, you know, he's basically blaming Ukraine for the invasion of its own country. You know it's like. And of course, he wants to be build a riverfront estate on in Gaza. I mean, it's totally vulgar, and he is, some way, the agenda is still his, which is, of course, extremely frustrating. But we are, we are a lot of us who are not a part of his agenda. You know? I mean, even if Europe is flow and weak, even if Canada is flow and weak, you know, but still, come on, there is a possibility of some kind of resistance. I think it's, it's coming up absolutely.

Leilani Farha:

I mean, I think that's part of the me feeling in the dark, because there are so many people coming out, not always the people I expect in my own sector. I don't see people speaking out as much as I would like, but there are many, many others, everyday people walking through this world that's been this new world that's been revealed, or this. Old World that's been revealed in shock, in horror, not accepting the values that are being pushed on us, right? And I want to be clear Fredrik, while I think the international system may have been flawed from the outset, I still believe in human rights. I mean the right to housing. I know that that would make people's lives better if that was realized, if people enjoyed the right to housing. I know that free expression is really important, and I so the rights I think, were correct, but I think the system and how and when you think of when the system was formed, okay, it's in the heels of World War Two. It was to correct the moral vacuum that was exposed during World War Two, in particular, the Holocaust. It was done at the expense of Palestinians. Right? So there was the 1948 Nakba, which expelled, displaced 750,000 Palestinians from their homes to create the State of Israel. That was all part of the creation of the international order. So that's why Palestine has become this litmus test in so many ways. But for me, it's not the rights. The rights are not wrong. That's a nice one. The rights are not wrong. I believe in those human rights. I do not believe in the governments that are trampling on them, the governments that are turning their back on them, right? I think, as I said in another interview, you know, it's like a lot of men behaving badly, very badly. Don't blame the rights. The rights are not wrong. The rights are not wrong.

Fredrik Gertten:

I mean, I'm back to Pankaj Mishra. He states some really harsh things. It means that Gaza now is replacing Auschwitz as a symbol of the final breakdown of the moral in the western democracies. Very strong words, you know, Gaza replacing Auschwitz. But he also says that this is the shadow of colonialism, and that Nazism, in some way, was an extension of colonialism. So it was basically Hitler kept doing what the Western nations had been doing in Africa and Latin America and Asia forever, but now for the first time he did it against other Europeans, the genocide of Jews. I think that's a it's a tough understanding, but there is probably a lot of points to it. The international human rights law that you are being you're the expert on, is also part of the results of the genocide of Jews. It's also that this should never happen again. That's been the message to the world. Let it never happen again. And genocides have been happening again. Massacres, you know, the killing of people, and all the time, killing of the weakest, and if they are in the way of some kind of exploitation of the nature and so on the planet. So it's it's there day by day. In many ways, I see what you mean, the relation in 1948 with Palestine and the Declaration of Human Rights. And that's a painful point for the international system, and it's especially painful for the US and for Germany. And what he also explains that Germany, in some way, became forgiven very quickly, because Germany was also needed in the new world, right? Interesting and needed in this kind of building up Israel.

Leilani Farha:

And now look at the role Germany is playing with the genocide in Gaza. It's remarkable,

Fredrik Gertten:

but it's also that Israel is a part of a military strategy from the West that is also the UK is a big part of but he also tells the stories about how how the Jews were treated. Also, after the war, there were big camps on Cyprus. The British kept a lot of Jews in detention for like, three, four years more. And you know, there's a lot of and then nobody really cared about the Jews after the war, until Israel became something that was a new project. Yeah, there is. We need to study this better to understand where we are at. Well,

Leilani Farha:

it's very interesting this idea too. And a lot of progressive Jewish people are saying this, that none of this is about protecting Jewish people, that it is very much about the military site, the geopolitical strategic interests of the state of Israel, and that it has nothing to do with protecting against anti semitism, nothing to do with protecting Jewish people generally. And I think that's such a strong message, like, Where, where are we? What is, what is this real? Be about, and that it's

Fredrik Gertten:

also, I mean, he also writes about how Jews, after the World War were not really so much pro Israel, but then for a long time, to be a Jew was also to be pro Israel. In the end, it became the definition of being a Jew, yeah, and so, and of course, that's been very complicated and but I also know one of the best Swedish writer, Johann roussenbeyer, wrote, is actually his work. He's coming out in English now it's amazing. So he is Swedish Jew, but he's also lived a lot long time in Israel and and he is one of the best writers about what is going on. And he is, of course, extremely critical. He also reviewed PANCA and Mauritius book here in Sweden. So I mean that we know there's a lot of it's not about Jews. It's not about anti semitism. It is. It's it's about something much bigger and and, of course, also more complicated. How do we bring all this back Leilani, because we are trying. We are just two people. We're trying to understand, and we try to stay human, you know, in the midst of this and but of course, I have a I have a sense that things are turning around now. More and more people come out at a very, very late point, for sure, extremely late point, people come out and say, what is happening in Gaza is wrong. And as you quoted your writer at one point in history, everybody would say that it was wrong. But it's there is. I have a sense that it's turning around. Of course, it will not be led by people in your neighbor country, I mean, or the government in your neighbor country. But it's happening around the world. And of course, in countries with the colonial experience, it will come faster.

Leilani Farha:

I have seen some movement as well. We started at the top talking about people being really worried about tariffs. And I mean, of course, that's all part of the way in which Western democracies have been structured as well, where we care more about the bottom line in dollars and cents than we do about human lives and certainly and the planet 100% exactly, I have started to see a conflation in the United States, these big, big protests against the behavior of the government, gutting the education, you know, getting rid of an education ministry, gutting USA ID, their development arm. You know, these big, big protests are starting to merge with the anti genocide protests, and for me, that's an interesting thing, because it means that they're starting to understand the evil of their Government writ large, that there is a connection between Trump's tariffs, Trump's gutting of the American governmental system, and Trump's attitude toward Gaza and Israel. And those connections are, they're difficult for people to make in their everyday lives. You know, we're all struggling just to get through every day, but I'm seeing those connections. They're starting to be made, and that's very, very important. I think if we're going to land in a good place,

Fredrik Gertten:

I mean, the first people out was in defense of Palestine was the afro Americans. I mean, so it's there is clear connection between Black Lives Matter, and and and defense of the rights for the Palestinians. Because, I mean, the experience is there. And then you, you can see the color line very clearly. And I can see also in the protests here in Sweden, my town, there's a lot of Gaza protest every week, and it's a lot of immigrants in around Latin Americans, you know, people from different countries active in this, because they can feel that this is the same monster, you know, yes, moving again. Yeah, I think that's that's really cool. Another thing I saw you talked about that we should bring in the Global South. I saw that the French economist, Thomas Piketty, he wrote today in or in the day in Le Monde, that he think that we should invite the south to IMF, you know, Brazil, South Africa, and others, and leave the us out, you know, yes, absolutely. So it's, and, I mean, I don't know if, but I think this thoughts are interesting, that

Leilani Farha:

I think so too, a new world order that Trump has,

Fredrik Gertten:

he's so he's, he's blatantly honest in I want everything. I want to win and I want you to lose. You know, his language is so clear cut, yeah, okay, you want us to lose. Okay, we don't want to lose. So then you have to, I mean, it becomes, like a bit, little bit of a fight. And I think both you can feel that in Canada, we can feel it in Europe, and certainly you can feel it if. Europe, in South America, or Africa or Asia, you can feel that, why should we be the losers? Better You be the loser? You know, it's a horrible kind of game. Because I also believe in not that global trade should be done as it always been. Of course, we need, still need to respect both the planet and human rights, which has, hasn't been a part of this liberal project. But still, I mean, I think there is this kind of re definition of things can be, can be good for us, and in that, there is some little hope in that possibility, a possibility. Possibility. Are you a possibilist?

Leilani Farha:

Yes, I'm a possibilist, rather than hopeful. I I'm just always looking for what's the possibility for change and and I do think these new sort of groupings and networks of countries from the global south are emerging. There is a group of nations that have come together. South Africa is one. I can't remember the group, but they are. They've taken a very strong stance on Palestine and against Israel. Israel's actions in Gaza in particular. So like these things are emerging. There's the there's the bricks, of course, Brazil, India,

Fredrik Gertten:

it's complicated because it also includes Russia and China. So it's, yeah, I mean, it is complicated, but it's complicated because it's, it's not, if you talk about human rights, it's not left or right, because the so called left, if you can even regard China or Russia as left, I think that's totally ridiculous, because there are, you know, fascist regimes, especially Russia, but human rights is not so high up on their agenda. No,

Leilani Farha:

definitely, not, definitely not a complicated world, isn't it? She

Fredrik Gertten:

is, but I you know, it's also populated with a lot of good people. And I think if the good people start to talk to each other, see each other and support each other, and maybe not always define people as not good enough or not correct enough, you know, I think we have to be a little bit more careful, because sometimes there is, there's a risk that the left is as a tendency of doing is say, because you say this, you're totally wrong, you're you're same as them. You know, I think we should be a little bit more hold back the worst aggressions and just try to see a little more generous. I think that's right. I think that's from my point of view. That's really important. Yeah,

Leilani Farha:

now if only I could travel to the United States to meet my friends and colleagues. Yeah, I

Fredrik Gertten:

actually thought about you when I read about this French academic attending a space convention in Houston, and he got stopped at the Houston airport, and they checked his phone and they found out that he'd been retweeting something about the attack on the academic world In the US, and he got arrested, first accused of terrorism or something like that, something really stupid, but they arrested him, and in the end, he got sent out of the country, and probably he can never go back. So this means that I thought about you, Leilani, so can you do you think you can go to the US?

Leilani Farha:

Absolutely not. There have been, well, the Government of Canada itself has an advisory out travel advisory saying, expect to be delayed or expect detention, and that you'll undergo, you know, very aggressive, or they don't use that word, but screening. So that's the government itself is saying that, and then the big national Muslim organization in Canada has issued a warning to anyone with an Arab last name or who is Arab or Muslim who has ties to the Middle East and who is, of course, anti genocide and vocal on social media, to just simply not travel to the United States. So I will take that under advisement, I'm certainly not going to travel there. I

Fredrik Gertten:

mean, this is, again, not the first time this I remember. This was maybe 1015, years ago, the Swedish national team of football, or flying to play friendly game in Mexico. And they had, they had to go through Houston, I think, or Atlanta, maybe. Well, whatever doesn't. And one of the guy was born in Tehran, Iran. It was in his passport, in his Swedish passport, yes. So he was coming with a whole national team, and he got hold back, wow, for, for like, 24 hours,

Leilani Farha:

was this, like, after 911 Yeah, probably, yeah, yeah. But,

Fredrik Gertten:

I mean, it's, it's so it's the name, your surname and your birthplace has for a long time been an issue

Leilani Farha:

in the US, yes, but now heightened, for sure, it's not getting

Fredrik Gertten:

better. And of course, I don't think, I mean, I love a lot of things about the US, a lot a lot of nice people out there and so on. So, I mean. I would like to go.

Leilani Farha:

I find it. I actually am shocked that probably for four years I would not be able to go. I mean, I live a few hours from the United States a drive. It's like not even two hours to the United States from where I live. I have a sister who lives in Washington. It's remarkable to me, and it is a topographically beautiful country. There are parts of it I love the Southwest United States and the beautiful desert mountains, that's my happy place, as they say, No, I find it actually kind of devastating.

Fredrik Gertten:

So that was like a sad ending of our

Leilani Farha:

of this episode, find our people elsewhere, but

Fredrik Gertten:

friends also friends in the US, because we have a huge audience in the US. Please write to us and and Let's support each other, and let's keep talking about important stuff. You find us on social media My name or Leilani, or push the film. We also now have a Pushback. Talks on blue sky. Blue Sky, yeah, so you can find us. So let's keep talking, and let's be friends with friends and take on the bastards.

Leilani Farha:

A perfect ending. Let's take on the bastards, with our friends

Fredrik Gertten:

and the rights are always right. Thanks. Fredrik, thanks. Leilani, see you soon.

Kirsten McRae:

Pushback Talks is produced by WG film. To support the podcast, become a patron by going to patreon.com/pushback talks follow us on social media at make underscore the shift and push underscore the film, or check out our websites: Maketheshift.org, pushthefilm.com, or breakingsocialfilm.com