Language Matters: a Playful Stream of Consciousness, pt1

This week we give you kind of a rerun; the first six episodes of this years Summer Series, back-to-back! If you missed the previous ones, or just like to listen to them in one go, here's your chance.

Word Food – bite-sized conversations that pack a punch. Each week, we randomly select two words and dive into a 10-15 minute exploration of how these seemingly simple words intersect with our complex socio-political moment.

Think of it as intellectual snacking with substance – light enough for your summer playlist, deep enough to make you think twice about the world around us. 

Next week we continue with the rest. 

Happy listening!

Transcript

Fredrik Gertten 0:02

I'm Fredrik Gertten and I'm the filmmaker.

Leilani Farha 0:05

And I'm Leilani Farha, and I'm the advocate.

Fredrik Gertten 0:09

And we are together Pushback talks. How many years have we been doing this now, Leilani?

Leilani Farha 0:15

Five. One, two, three, four, five.

Fredrik Gertten 0:18

That's a kind of a cool thing. And we've been publishing a lot of episodes during these five years, and with the ambition to meet inspirational people and you know, together try to understand the world. And also to see that there is a lot of pushback happening around the world.

Leilani Farha 0:37

A lot. A lot. It's been an amazing run, actually. And we've had amazing guests.

Fredrik Gertten 0:43

Yeah.

Leilani Farha 0:43

From all, like when you think about it, all different kinds of guests. The only thing I would say, Fredrik, we haven't had enough artists.

Fredrik Gertten 0:52

Oh, you need to artists. Okay, let's bring on the artists. Yeah. And and we do this because we we get energy out of it. Energy out of understanding and listening to people. And I think that's we we all need to keep our minds going. So for this summer, we're going to have a very special version of pushback talks. And we are we just found out that the label we will call them word food, or you can call the wordly word food. So I will give you a word, Leilani, and then you have to elaborate elaborate. And you might kick me one. And then we do it kind of short, 10 minutes episodes. What do you say about that?

Leilani Farha 1:42

I like the idea. Let's see if we can manage. I think it's fun. Word food. We will get sustenance from words. We will give people sustenance from our words and thoughts.

Fredrik Gertten 1:57

Are you ready?

Leilani Farha 1:58

I think so.

Fredrik Gertten 2:00

Five, four, three, two, one. Leilani. Hope.

Leilani Farha 2:08

You're making me stressed. The countdown, and then this big word hope. I hear a lot of people using this term right now because we're the world is in such a critical position, whether it's the wars that are being waged, whether it's climate change. There's a lot of a lot of people are saying, well, we've got to have hope. And I actually don't like the word. I find it um thin. I'm an advocate. And I can't rest on hope. I mean, that's not gonna make change. That's not gonna make the world a better place. I need action, strategy, law, movements.

Fredrik Gertten 2:51

But in all what you are mentioning, you know, there is hope. I see hope in action. You know, I see hope in when people are doing something, when people gather together, when you do stuff together with your neighbors to improve your neighborhood. I mean, I think for me, hope is really important. And and I think also in my work, I try always to look for for hope, for light. You know, we can call it light.

Leilani Farha 3:23

Light, yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 3:24

And and uh because it's very easy to go down the that dark alley, everything is going to hell. And right now, in you know, in the time of the Trumpists take over around the world, of course, it's very easy to look away from hope. So I think it's actually that's why I think this word is extra important right now.

Leilani Farha 3:48

Interesting. So I mean, I suppose when I wake up in the morning and I, you know, I I I willingly and sometimes with quite a bit of energy, go to my desk to do my work. I suppose there's a kind of I don't know if it's hope. I think it's a possibility, a possibility for a better world. I think it's opportunity. I'm always looking. What are the opportunities to make change? What are the doors I can walk through or break down to make change? So I guess it is a kind of hope, but it's just there's something about that word.

Fredrik Gertten 4:22

I think what we are doing in this podcast and what I do in my work and you and your work is like we're looking for ways to move things. And I think and we are we do that here by trying to understand, learn more about stuff. And I think that knowledge gives us hope, you know, to understand the complexity of things. That that's hopeful too because understanding is also a tool in itself. And I think that uh the language is also we we're talking, we have now a word summer here, worldly summer. So it's if we find the correct language, and I think what you did in the film Push is that you kind of went through with your message that uh housing is a human right. I mean, that language was so important, that's hopeful in itself to formulate something that travels. So that's hope for me. Now you have to turn it around because we are we're going to very do. I mean, do you have any words for me? I do have a word for you, Frederick. Bananas. Bananas. Oh, that yellow little pesticide-fueled little fruit. Oh, it's like the the banana, the banana republics. Uh, you know, it was uh the Americans going down to Central America, stealing people's land, and then they have this banana disease that came after, so they have to move the plantations all the time. And in the end, you know, they were just chopping down rainforests. That's bananas, but then of course, the world is also bananas. Uh, and when I did the film Bananas, which is now it premiered in 2009, so it's quite a few years ago. The the word bananas, I played with that kind of the double meaning of it. And I think that's that's what we should do, also with words like to play a bit. And then you know, when I got sued by Dole Food Company, the biggest, one of the biggest banana companies, the biggest fruit company on the planet, but they are the they have 25% of the world market of bananas. Uh, they sued us, and then I made this film called Big Boys Gone Bananas, and of course, the big boys are then Dole, the big, the big corporations. And I mean, I told you there's the same group of lawyers that sued us for bananas are now suing Greenpeace up in in Dakota. So it's uh we were we were kind of close to the real big evil on this planet.

Leilani Farha 7:18

Big Boys Gone Bananas. Yeah, one of the all-time best titles of any film, in my opinion. I love that title. For me, bananas. So interesting bananas. I mean, bananas are something you in at least in my culture, you eat if you have an upset stomach. You know, if you're traveling and you get, you know, some stomach problem, you eat a banana, and it's sort of it's it's like a cure. And then bananas, like as a child growing up, I ate peanut butter and banana sandwiches all the time. I loved it, like a staple. You know, it's like this sort of basic thing. And then there's this history of bananas that you have tapped into and destroying your appetite. Exactly. Exactly.

Fredrik Gertten 8:09

It's kind of like very But Alice is the most popular fruit on the planet.

Leilani Farha 8:15

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 8:15

And in every supermarket, it's 1% of the turnaround in Canada, in Sweden, and everywhere. You know, it's so it's a staple, so it's extremely popular and extremely rentable. Yeah. And of course, it's extremely produced in an unsustainable way for the planet and for the workers. Because to be able to produce in the way they do, they need a lot of pesticides and fungicides and insecticides, and you name it, and the earth is destroyed forever. So they it's not sustainable, and and we shouldn't eat it because then we contribute to oppression and the destroying the planet. So if you should go for bananas, you should go, it should be fair trade produced.

Leilani Farha 9:04

Well, and you've changed my life, my family's life with your film, because now we have to search for those fair trade bananas, which do exist in my city, we can get them, but not at every store. So we have to be very selective in where we buy our bananas, but we only buy fair trade in our household thanks to you. Of course, we're probably contributing to climate change if we're driving around looking for them, but we don't, we ride our bikes. That'll be for the next uh our next word food bikes.

Fredrik Gertten 9:37

Let's see. Um, so I think this was like the first episode of our our word food, and um I like it.

Leilani Farha 9:46

I like it too.

Fredrik Gertten 9:47

Yeah, and uh pushback talks will be back already next week because this is now something we will roll all over the summer. Thank you, and follow us on social media on Blue Sky, it's pushback talks on uh so-called Twitter or ex-Twitter, it's uh push the film, same on on Facebook. You can also write straight to Leilani on your social media with suggestions of words we should play with. See you soon.

Leilani Farha 10:13

Bye Frederick.

Fredrik Gertten 10:14

Bye.

Leilani Farha 10:20

Here's my word for you, Frederick.

Fredrik Gertten 10:23

Human, human, human scale? I like that to build a city for people, not for cars. I like that human scale, human rights that I think should be for all humans, not only for peoples from a special race or or religion or so. I think that's a good thing, and I think that's a problem we have on the planet, and I think a lot of people are right now understanding that human rights are not for all. I mean, I think that's what happened now in the US with all the protests against ICE because you you have politicians that to make political points are destroying people's lives happily, you know, just locking up people, and you know, creating so much sadness for human families.

Leilani Farha 11:28

Ah, I'm gonna stop you there. You said human families, and that's what I was thinking when I came up with the word human, because the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says right at the beginning that we are all part of the human family, and as such, we all have inalienable rights, in other words, rights attached to us because of our being human and we're all part of one family. Sure doesn't feel like that right now. It seems like some people are part of the human family with rights, and some people are exceptions, unfortunately.

Fredrik Gertten 12:09

Yeah, yeah. I had a coffee this morning and a friend, and we talked about the Israel's attack on Iran, and and you know, and of course, then he said we can't repeat the Israeli talking points that the Iranians don't have the right to have weapons. I mean, because the Israelis already have nuclear weapons, so it's like is it only dark-skinned people who don't have the right to have guns? You know, it's like it's it is this balance is coming back and forth all the time. Um, and I think we should keep focused. And I I just wrote a little story in a Swedish newspaper about Jeta Thunba, who is a great human. She is, but she is like, I mean, she's now 22, but she came out saying, listen to the science, you know, about the climate change. And now when she turned herself into a Palestine activist, she says, listen to international law, follow international law. It's very simple messages and it's very human. So and that's with that's also language. We talk about language in the in our podcast. Greta is good with language, you know, to formulate something that we can all, you know, stand behind.

Leilani Farha 13:28

Yeah, she's excellent. She's excellent. And she makes this beautiful connection and says, you know, unless we follow international law, we won't have a healthy planet, we won't save the planet, and we won't save Palestinians. And she's just making these connections.

Fredrik Gertten 13:46

Okay. So I I have to turn something back to you then. You do. And then this is will actually be three words in in one. Walk the dog.

Leilani Farha 13:57

I do it every morning.

Fredrik Gertten 13:59

You do it every morning.

Leilani Farha 14:00

Except when I'm traveling, which I am right now. Then I walk my sister's dog, but not every morning. Walk the dog. That is what I do every morning, except Sundays. No, except Saturdays, excuse me. My dog is Bean, and it is my moment to reflect on the world. I try not to be on my phone. I try to walk in the forest and by the river and connect with the planet and remind myself that the world can be okay. I it's very grounding for me. I often look up at the sky and the treetops. Yeah, that's what I do when I walk the dog.

Fredrik Gertten 14:46

Good. That's nice. I thought you were going to say that Netanyahu is walking the dog with Trump, you know, or or the Epstein files actually was uh, you know, most sad putting pressure on on, you know, also walking the dog with Americans. But okay, but it's good. We took it very literally, my friend. Very literally. I like that. I think we we should all walk our inner dog. We should get out and yes, yes, listen. Yeah, listen to the sounds of the nature of the wind and the trees and the birds, and maybe I am close to the sea, you know. Listen to the waves touching the shore. I think I think that's important also for an advocate and a filmmaker. Yeah, we also need to just listen to life and to walk our inner dog.

Leilani Farha 15:49

Yeah. I'll say one more thing. It is an obligation. I have to walk the dog. If I don't walk the dog, there will be a mess in the house, and no one else walks the dog in the morning. So it is an obligation. And so I made it sound a little healthier or something. There's always two sides to something. I mean, I often resent, it's minus 20 in the winter, and I have to walk a dog. So there is that side to it. But no matter what, even though it can be an obligation, once I'm out the door and I'm down the path, it always feels great.

Fredrik Gertten 16:33

But that's like fighting back, you know. Fighting back is something you have to do, and when you do it, you feel better. That's right. We push back, Leilani. And that's why we do this podcast. See you soon. Two more words. Two more words. Bye. The word of the week or the words of the week is R-O-Y, Return on Investment.

Leilani Farha 17:05

R-O-I. I, yeah. Not why.

Fredrik Gertten 17:10

I, I said I. I'm Swedish. Come on. Don't don't expect me to be perfect in your in your English. In my English.

Leilani Farha 17:19

Return on investment rules the day. That is how our whole world seems to be structured, where business interests and the interests of finance and investors and their return on investment is what government policies and programs support. And it is how our entire world, almost every sector, is constructed, whether it's the housing sector, the health industry, education, it I'm sure in the arts. And it's really, in my opinion, ruining our world. Because it means that we're not thinking about other things like people and human well-being and the planet and the boundaries of the planet, what the planet can can withstand. It's all extraction, extraction, extraction, and for who? Just a very few, mostly white men.

Fredrik Gertten 18:26

Yeah. I think also, I mean, sometimes I think of the meaning of the definition of the word investment, because you invest a lot into your work. I invest a lot into my work. So that's kind of in some way positive investment, but we are also in a society where that kind of human investments are not valued. So it's only money investment that counts, not the other kind of efforts that we do for it for a better society. And I think that's that's the balance that is also brings everything down. Because a lot of these investments that we see in the housing markets are now actually not making anything better. They don't even produce anything, you know, they just make stuff more expensive. So it's now we we landed in a situation where we pay tax to investors, you know, because in every cup of coffee we buy, everything we do, we have to pay to them. And they are all the time looking for the next place to put their money. Of course, now they will put a lot of money into the war machines because that's where the money is, you know. Exactly. So again, it's not that productive.

Leilani Farha 19:45

But no, the only the one thing I will say is when I think of the term return on investment, I do think there is an opportunity there to have that conversation that you just started around well, there are different kinds of returns. So you can have um financial return, but you can also have a well-being return. And in my world, we've you know started to talk about human rights outcomes, so economies that produce human rights outcomes. So the return on investment would be the fulfillment of human rights or the enjoyment of human rights. And so there's a way in which we can play with this idea of ROI in my world. And that's what I've been trying to do recently.

Fredrik Gertten 20:40

I think you you can also think about love and love investment. You know, you do good stuff and you get something in return, you know. I mean, that's how we should see the world, isn't it? Love, the return of investment. Now you have to push me a word, baby.

Leilani Farha 20:57

Okay, I'm gonna give you a word. Oh my gosh. Savior.

Fredrik Gertten 21:04

Savior. Leilani, I would say that you are my savior some days. Yeah. Because you know, you feel grinded down by work or like of challenges to fund the films, which has become increasingly so tough. I just heard now that the House of Representatives in the US want to close down the public uh broadcasting system, everything down. Wow. Like NPR kind of thing? Everything, no, all the money from from the federal level. Wow. So but you are my savior. And but it's it's tough. We in tough times, you know. So we need saviors and we need um this kind of inspiration. I'm always come back to inspiration. The the people who save me are the people who inspire me and who to make my brain go kind of bright again, you Know it's like because you can feel grinded down, and you you have that for me, and I I think also the the podcast gives that to me some kind of brightness. I feel that I have to kind of uh push myself a little bit, yeah. And that's interesting. That uh sometimes I feel lazy, but whenever I push myself, I also feel a bit lighter, and uh so you are my savior. That's that's my only that's amazing. You are my savior.

Leilani Farha 22:30

I'm happy to play that role, sure. I uh I have uh the other side, I keep like doing this flip, the other side of savior. One of the things in my world, my advocacy world around housing, is the very actors who've caused this crisis of affordability and homelessness and just precarious housing conditions and living conditions, those very actors, the private equity firms, developers, pension funds, they want to act like they are also the solution to the crisis, the saviors they're gonna swoop in and build, build, build and save us all.

Fredrik Gertten 23:17

Just talking points, talking points, exactly, false saviors. They are fake saviors. Fake saviors. Let's fuck the fake saviors. Yeah. Okay, thank you for today. Let's that was two more words next week. Two more, two more ready?

Leilani Farha 23:51

Frankenstein.

Fredrik Gertten 23:55

Frankenstein. Oh, that's that's a it's a film monster, isn't it? It is like some kind of and a book. It was a book, and a book, yeah, and uh yeah, and a fictional character. Yeah, um, yeah, is he a good guy or a bad guy? Just just maybe just an misunderstood personality, or is Trump a Frankenstein?

Leilani Farha 24:23

Or is Netanyahu a Frankenstein?

Fredrik Gertten 24:26

Yeah. Um, or Elon Musk?

Leilani Farha 24:30

I think the thing about Frankenstein is not to interrupt, but it was a monster that was created. Right? Yeah, yeah. By the scientists. So have we created, has the world created some monsters? Fed like I would say the US has fed the monster that now is a genocidal state, right? I mean, they've the US has, especially the US, other states as well, in Europe, I suppose, but really supported Israel, supported them, supported them, and now look at look at where we've landed. They're bombing Iran.

Fredrik Gertten 25:11

Yeah, and and in some way, even if I mean, even for people who love Israel can see how Israel is losing itself in this new extreme identity. I mean, I exactly. My younger brother, now late, who he went as young to work in the kibbutz in Israel, you know, and a lot of people did, you know, too, because there was like something really um communal and cool going on. We also know that that was also on on the land of people who were pushed out, so it it was of course already then complicated, but there was at least uh a different dream and a different kind of identity which seems to be totally gone now, it's almost erased. Uh, and maybe that was a part of it in in the end that there was no other way to go.

Leilani Farha 26:08

Well, when you build a dream on the necks of other people, yeah, yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 26:12

Uh that's probably what happens when you do stuff in laboratories like that, you know.

Leilani Farha 26:19

Exactly, exactly.

Fredrik Gertten 26:20

But of course, you could also think about the the algorithms as some kind of modern Frankenstein machine because they are also been spreading hatred and division and giving strength to the haters, uh, which I think is very scary. And now we have uh I mean we have Trump and we have uh Musk and all these people who are bluntly evil. Yes, bluntly evil, happily evil all the time, and it's kind of it's um it's strange to see that it it pays off to be so so evil and enjoying to just smash people's lives.

Leilani Farha 27:05

It's the normalization of evil. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's what they're trying to do, and they're they're getting their way. They're getting their way. I have to say before you throw a word at me, that the word Frankenstein in my analysis came from a uh post I saw on Instagram from a colleague of mine, former from the UN, Craig McIver. I have to give due credit.

Fredrik Gertten 27:31

That's fine. That's fine. Okay, I'll give you a word. Okay. Wine. And I'm not talking about crying and competing.

Leilani Farha 27:41

I know what kind of wine you're talking about. W-I-N-E, red, white, or rose.

Fredrik Gertten 27:47

Yeah. What's your favorite grape?

Leilani Farha 27:50

You know, the sad truth. Now for me, I have a nostalgia around wine because I no longer drink wine or any alcohol, actually. Yeah, I just it was disrupting my sleep, and so I had to choose. I was choosing, and I chose sleep over wine. That truth.

Fredrik Gertten 28:12

I mean, the listeners should know that I mean, we for some years we we traveled a lot together to many places when we shot the film, and then when we launched the film, and since the pandemic, we haven't met many times. No, so I couldn't really check on that.

Leilani Farha 28:27

But no, but we have shared many a glass of wine.

Fredrik Gertten 28:30

Yeah, it was I think it was a it's a great relief, especially when it's good and produced in a in an ethical way. Absolutely.

Leilani Farha 28:40

And uh Sauvignon Blanc was my I know wine of choice. And you know what? Now you say, you know, like I can remember when I was on a mission when I was UN Special Rapporteur, a very difficult mission, and it's quite relevant today. It was to Egypt. And some very difficult things happened while I was there. I was detained on the side of the road.

Fredrik Gertten 29:08

I remember you texted me while you were in. I remember that. Yeah, it was very intense.

Leilani Farha 29:13

Very intense. And now we see what Egypt is doing with some of these people who are going on the march to Gaza. They're arresting some of the Algerians and et cetera. I mean, it's typical behavior from that state. But I will not forget the wine I had in the evenings on that mission. And it did, it was a savior of some kind. It it just brought me down, made me able to breathe a little bit and try to figure out how I was going to conduct a mission to help people in Egypt who are suffering this oppression in the area of housing in particular.

Fredrik Gertten 29:54

I put the word there because I think we if we always talk about tough things and all that, you know, we're all into change the world, fight back. And I think, okay, come on, let's relax. There is also beauty. And uh for me, wine is a part of the beauty of the world.

Leilani Farha 30:12

There are, of course, many other beauties, also, but I mean, so I just wanted to put some beauty into and also the bringing like I've shared wine with you, with many colleagues, friends, and it's like a coming together, you know. So it's lovely, yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 30:28

So here's the wine.

Leilani Farha 30:30

Here's the wine. Cheers.

Fredrik Gertten 30:33

Cheers. Here's a word for you, Leilani. The social contract.

Leilani Farha 30:44

That's two words. And my reply in an instant is the social contract is dead.

Fredrik Gertten 30:53

Okay. Did it ever exist? More I existed in our minds, of course.

Leilani Farha 31:00

It existed in our minds. You know, it's such a good question. Did it ever exist? My entire career was based on some idea that the social contract was something other people believed in and that governments had committed to when they signed international law and these treaties that say everyone should have adequate housing, food, water and sanitation, health, education, um, you know, cultural rights, oh, rights around employment, of course, the ability to unionize, organize. To me, that was all about the social contract. And, you know, almost all of the world's governments have signed that treaty that contains all of those things. So I used to believe that. And now, you know, we're in this place, this horrible place right now, where it's clear international law is meaningless. Governments never intended, I don't think, to hold themselves accountable, and they certainly aren't holding themselves accountable now. And so I don't know where we're at. Um, but I do know that people want the social contract.

Fredrik Gertten 32:12

Yeah, I mean and they are demanding it. You know, I made this my latest film, um Breaking Social, is about the breaking of the social contract. So I've I've been thinking a lot about it, especially because I think the kind of the meaning of the social contract is in all of us, you know, this kind of we want to be good, we want to be responsible for our community, and we don't like when people are too pushy or too egoistic. Um, so it's in us as human beings to to do good together. But obviously, it became really hard, and we have a society that is rewarding the people who break the social contract. And of course, now when we have the fascists and governments around the world um who happily break it and make are proud of breaking the social contract. Of course, it will be very hard, but I still think that a part of our resistance needs to be to stand by values. I think our values are part of our defense. So we when they go low, we we still have to go high. We can't go low with them. I think uh kind of a leftist populism is kind of it's not so fun, you know. Sometimes you can communicate in a good way, but I think it's I think it's wrong. I think we have to kind of stand up for for moral values, human rights, and for some kind of social contract.

Leilani Farha 33:50

I agree with that. I agree with that, and I don't think there's any other path. I mean, what's the alternative to just abandoned values? What I do think though, Frederick, is on the left, if you want to use that language, which we tend not to use, but progressives, let's say, whatever. We're not so good at at packaging it, selling it, and uh making it a requirement. Um yeah, so and we have to do better at at putting those values as as the way forward. Um and and I mean it's so awful for people and our young people, you know, you and I both have young, you know, kids and you know, young adults, I guess. And you know, they will do everything right. They get their education, they're doing internships, they're doing this, there's summer jobs, etc. And at the end of it, they may not have a home they can afford, they may not have a decent job, they won't have a pension, they won't be unionized, etc.

Fredrik Gertten 34:56

So but values, Leila. You have to push it to me.

Leilani Farha 35:01

I'm gonna give you a word. It's a big word. It's a small word, but it's a big word. Are you ready for it? No, yes, five, four, three, two, one. The word is media.

Fredrik Gertten 35:13

Media. Oh, it sounds like somebody who's reading tarot cards in in a little shop in in Ottawa. Is that a media? You can foresee the future. Ah, and your card looks like you might be getting laid tonight, or I don't know. Media. Oh, you mean you're talking about mass media? You're talking about journalists, journalists and stuff, and stuff. Oh, yeah. Um, you know, I was a journalist, I worked as a journalist for many years, and uh I have a deep respect for journalism. It's always been crappy journalism, commercial journalism. I mean, so it's not that everything is, you know, everything is heroic, but but I think when media and journalists are doing the job well, they are trying to see the cracks on the wall and to say, hey, there's something wrong here. Let's so so society can fix it, you know. I it's um it's a function of democracy that is needed.

Leilani Farha 36:32

Yes.

Fredrik Gertten 36:32

And I think the one of the biggest crises right now uh is the death of the local media, which is happening all over the world. Uh, and in the US, I think almost all the small newspapers, city newspapers have gone, which means that there, I what I see from the US is that people don't even vote locally anymore, you know. So it's kind of a very important part of democracy goes away because democracy has to come from the local level, I think, and up. It's not only about electing a president or a prime minister, it's also about who's ruling your city and in what direction your city is going. So I think we we need to kind of reinvent the the local media, the local journalism. I think that's really important. But of course, also we I mean, yeah, we take it the other way around. The local journalism in Gaza uh has been extremely important. So important that Israel has started to target the journalists. And now I saw a post saying that there are more killed journalists in Gaza than in the First World War, Second World War, the Vietnam War, the Afghanistan War. I think more dead journalists in Gaza. It's it's very hard to comprehend. But it tells you something about the power of storytelling. The power of truth? The power of truth, and it's I mean, you can imagine if if the Jews uh in the time of Hitler had social media and could broadcast from the ghetto of Warsaw and from all the other places where the horrible things happened.

Leilani Farha 38:19

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 38:20

Would that have changed the course of history? Hopefully. Hopefully.

Leilani Farha 38:25

Hopefully. I wouldn't say that actually. I wouldn't say that it hasn't changed anything. It hasn't changed the reality for people in Gaza. All of this, you know, it's what uh Motaz Azeza, the very famous photographer uh and journalist, uh, he became a journalist because of what's happening in Gaza. It's what he said, like, I showed everything in the first few months. I showed everything, and it made no difference. And but it it isn't totally true. I mean, people around the world have awakened to what's happening in Gaza and what's happening to Palestinians in a new way. I mean, this it's it is phenomenal, and millions of people, well, probably billions, have protested, etc. The one thing that uh when I think of media, I mean, in my work, human rights we say is an accountability, it's it's about accountability, about the accountability of states. And I've always interacted with media that way as well, that media can hold governments accountable to things like human rights. And I've worked very closely with journalists. I've always tried to, and and not just so that like I can be in the limelight, rather educating them about the financialization of housing, trying to explain to them what the human right to housing means. I am very disappointed in mainstream media since Gaza has unfolded and the deep bias in some of the media outlets that I would normally have relied on for accountability in my own country, for example. Oh, every media is biased, but the Globe and Mail, our kind of national newspaper, the CBC, um, all of the mainstream channels, um, the BBC in the UK has come under complete fire. So many, the New York Times.

Fredrik Gertten 40:24

Can I can I add something here? I remember I told you in an earlier episode that we were sued by a Dole Food Company for a film called Bananas. And when I was under attack, um the media has an easy way to handle things is they say this side and the other side, you know? It's like they they call it balance because then they don't really have to go deep. Yeah, they can stay on the surface and they can say, okay, the authorities in Gaza said 100 kids killed, and then Israel says uh there was a mass fighter in the crowd, or uh we will uh we will investigate, whatever. You know, it's so it's a very easy way of just balancing. And you know, when I was sued, it was a small company in Sweden against the biggest fruit company in the world. It's not an evil, says Fredericks has dole, yeah, but that's how it was treated. And and I think that's the media has to go deeper, you know, and just and also emotionally say, okay, what is happening here? Who is who is the big guy and who is the small guy? Who is David and who is Goliath? And I think the the laziness of many journalists, and of course, in the in also in a time of political messaging of talking points, it's very easy to get lost because the talking points sent out are done by really smart people. So it just by repeating the talking points from the powerful, you're already then doing a shitty job.

Leilani Farha 42:07

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 42:07

That's my that's my take.

Leilani Farha 42:10

Yeah. Journalists are also very poorly paid. So that contributes to that kind of what we might call laziness. And a lot of journalists are told what they can and cannot say by the powers that be, especially in these the big mainstream media.

Fredrik Gertten 42:27

Yeah, that's how it is. But we love journalists and keep it up, colleagues and friends, uh, and and support good journalists and give them give them love because they also need it.

Leilani Farha 42:39

And we need the truth.

Fredrik Gertten 42:41

We need the truth.

Leilani Farha 42:49

The word for you today, Frederick, is uh growth.

Fredrik Gertten 42:54

Growth. Um growth is something that people with power talk a lot about. And also people on the left, they talk about they don't like growth. So growth is something that people talk a lot about. I think the definition of growth is much more important. We measure growth in GDP, and what I read is that the guy who kind of created uh GDP measured, right? The concept, he didn't include the financial industries in GDP. So now a lot of growth happens within this bubble that is the financial, you know, industries and in investments. So is that growth at all? I mean, if the house in front of me on the street here where I in Malmo, if if that suddenly Is worth 10 million dollars more than it was 10 years ago. Is that really growth? Uh I don't think so. Because it's not productive growth. So I think growth can be nice and good for a society because it creates more jobs. And but I think we should, I mean, if we need growth, we should give more money to to theaters, to to actors, to musicians, and because it's also sustainable growth, you know, to art, to to plant more trees, you know. That could be a very good way of measuring growth instead of measuring the financial bubble all the time. I think it's fake growth, the financial bubble. What do you think? You had a thought when you pushed it to me.

Leilani Farha 44:53

I definitely think financial growth, and certainly in my area of work, um the in constantly increasing so-called value of homes uh and property is fake and certainly not productive. It's fiction, it's a complete fiction, and it's it doesn't give anything back to society at all. It enriches a few and and impoverishes many and it doesn't even lead to like more money circulating in the economy. So the thing that I find amazing is how it's just taken for granted that economic growth is a good thing and it's what we every nation should be striving for. And I I don't necessarily disagree that some economic growth is good if it's benefiting human potential, human capacity, human well-being, right? If that's what it's producing. But so often you'll see countries with this, you know, 5% GDP growth, but they're not making a dent in homelessness, in poverty. In fact, all of those things are going up.

Fredrik Gertten 46:03

And I think also growth has been like has been sold as something we need because the population is also growing. Yeah. So now we are in a point in history where it seems like population is actually not growing anymore in many of our countries. Right. So that would be also interesting to see. Well, now, can we now redefine growth in that sense? Uh it it I think it is interesting.

Leilani Farha 46:28

Well, there's a big degrowth degrowth movement, which is controversial as I understand it. But you know, and in my world, like everyone talks about building more housing, that we're gonna solve the housing crisis. Build more housing. But the degrowth people would say, Do we really need to build more housing? Maybe we need to use what we have already first. Let's try that first. It's interesting.

Fredrik Gertten 46:55

I sympathize a lot with those thoughts, and I think the degrowth movement are hitting some very important things.

Leilani Farha 47:04

Maybe we should have our home values go down.

Fredrik Gertten 47:08

Yeah. Degrowth. Yeah, and that's because remember when we we followed the the plebiscite in Berlin about uh you know nationalizing or uh socializing a big part of the housing stock in Berlin, they wanted to take off 10 years speculative uh growth on it, and I think that's really interesting. Yeah, that because it's not been productive, it's not been productive growth.

Leilani Farha 47:36

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 47:36

So I think we you should talk about growth, but also talk about what the fuck is growth.

Leilani Farha 47:45

I'm good with that.

Fredrik Gertten 47:46

What the fuck is growth? Okay. What the fuck is growth? I will give you, I will give you a word, Leila. Are you ready?

Leilani Farha 47:53

I'm ready.

Fredrik Gertten 47:55

Summer.

Leilani Farha 47:57

Summer. Summer is here. Summer for a Canadian, summer is everything.

Fredrik Gertten 48:05

Also for a Swede, my friend.

Leilani Farha 48:06

We wait, yeah, for a Swede too. We wait all year for summer. Yeah, summer is so lovely. I and I have to say, I have so much trouble really doing hard work when it's beautiful summer days. Um, it does give me, maybe summer gives me hope. In one of our previous episodes, I said I didn't like the word hope. Um, but it's so bountiful, all the flowers blooming, everything coming to life again. I I love steamy weather, and it's where I live, it gets very hot in the summer and humid, and I quite like that. Yeah, summer makes me happy. I'm just gonna be able to do that.

Fredrik Gertten 48:45

Did you say that summer is contra-revolutionary?

Leilani Farha 48:49

That that people in the summer don't really have energy for protests and I don't know about that because in it's so much easier to go to a protest if you don't have to bundle up in your winter coat and your hat and your mitts and stand in the cold. No, I always figured that it's the countries that have better climates that have better social movements because they can go out on the street so easily.

Fredrik Gertten 49:15

Yeah, well, summer is a good time for protest friends. Except people go away. You see, it's like that's the problem. You want to hang out with your family, your friends. I would like to drink wine.

Leilani Farha 49:30

Some coffees. For me, swimming in the lake. Oh, it's so nice. Lake waters.

Fredrik Gertten 49:41

After hours in the editing. Summer is good. And and also here in the north, summer also means the double length of daytime. Crazy. So it's uh light, light, light, light, and and light gives energy. Yes. I think that's it's really, really cool. And and of course, that's the the opposite is winter, then when the day is kind of over before it starts, which is tough, I think. So I gave you a love word to end summer. Summer.

Leilani Farha 50:18

It's so nice, yes.

Fredrik Gertten 50:20

Yeah, that you can sing the summertime songs, and yeah.

Leilani Farha 50:23

I spend a lot of time in my garden, which is also so uh meditative.

Fredrik Gertten 50:29

I've never been, you never invited me to your home. That is not true.

Leilani Farha 50:34

We filmed, we filmed part of Push in Ottawa, and you chose not to come. Now it wasn't summer, it was winter, and we filmed outdoors. But yeah, but I love to go to my garden in the summer. In the early morning, I wake up before anyone else in my house, and I sometimes I'll just go back to the garden and check on my plants, see how everything is doing, see if things are growing.

Fredrik Gertten 51:02

Actually, my I'm going with my neighbors uh this weekend to buy plants to our courtyard. Oh, nice. And we live in the center of Malma, but we the neighbors together, we uh we are pushing the landlord, which is the city-owned landlord, to so they now they gave us okay, you go and buy plants and then you send us the bill. So we had a amazing, yeah. Yeah, we've been so like a community garden. Yeah, I mean it's a it's a very small space, yeah, but we will still um make it more beautiful, and we will do it and we will decide the plants we want. Wait, yeah, oh have fun.

Leilani Farha 51:35

So that's something I love that's my favorite thing, going to buy plants. I buy a lot of plants every year and I kill a lot too, but I do grow some too, and and my favorite, I just planted. In fact, before coming on this trip, I just planted my Lebanese mint, it's very important for for me, for my fatouche salads, my you know, various things. And I planted a little bit of basil, I planted some cherry tomatoes. Getting ready.

Fredrik Gertten 52:04

Good. So enjoy your summer, Leilani, and and talk next week. We will.

Leilani Farha 52:10

So if you like our podcast, you have to let us know. Please send us comments, rate us. I think that helps. Promote the podcast. Tell your friends about us. We need more listeners, and we need a little bit of love too. Love can come in the form of money. If you want to give us a little money every month, you can go to patreon.com, look for pushback talks. Every euro, every pound, every dollar buys Frederick a Cortato. No, it helps us produce the podcast. Otherwise, we do it for free.

Fredrik Gertten 52:48

Good. See you soon.

Leilani Farha 52:50

Bye, Frederick.

Fredrik Gertten 52:51

Bye.

Kirsten McRae 52:55

Pushback Talks is produced by WG Film. To support the podcast, become a patron by going to patreon.com slash pushback talks. Follow us on social media at make underscore the shift and push underscore the film. Or check out our websites makeshift.org, pushthefilm.com, or breaking socialfilm.com.