Language Matters: a Playful Stream of Consciousness, pt2

This week we continue with the last five episodes of this years Summer Series, back-to-back! If you missed the previous ones, or just like to listen to them in one go, here's your chance. 

And if you liked this concept of shorter episodes around two words, please let us know in a comment or at pushback@wgfilm.se and we might just return with some more in the future!

Word Food – bite-sized conversations that pack a punch. Each week, we randomly select two words and dive into a 10-15 minute exploration of how these seemingly simple words intersect with our complex socio-political moment.

Think of it as intellectual snacking with substance – light enough for your summer playlist, deep enough to make you think twice about the world around us.

Happy snacking!

Transcript

Fredrik Gertten 0:03

I'm Fredrik Gertten and I'm the filmmaker.

Leilani Farha 0:06

And I'm Leilani Farha, and I'm the advocate.

Fredrik Gertten 0:08

And this is Pushback Talks Summer Special, where we play with words, me and Leilani, and we call it word food. Leilani, are you ready? I feel like I'm on a game show. You are. I'm ready. Let's go. No words.

Leilani Farha 0:32

That's that's my that's what you want me to talk about. No words. Well, it's really interesting, of course, for me. That started to appear, those two words, no words, started to appear about six months after October 7, 2023, when things in Gaza just started seeming out of control and so horrific. Everyone around me was saying no words. I would greet people and and you know, how are you? And people would just say no words. And I think at that time we didn't realize that this was a bottomless pit. So the no words then, like, where are we now? If there were no words, however, you know, 12 months ago, where are we now?

Fredrik Gertten 1:29

Yeah, I I think it's interesting, and I think I saw a protest somewhere in the US where women were marched like in red dresses, like the Handmaid's Tale women, with only some solemn music, but no words. I think maybe that's it, it's what people feel right now. Okay, we have to take the streets, we have to be out, we have to meet each other, but there is there are no more words.

Leilani Farha 2:01

I really like that. I really like that, Frederick.

Fredrik Gertten 2:03

Yeah, because also silence can express a lot in some ways if we do it in an organized way.

Leilani Farha 2:12

Absolutely. And the idea of maybe taking action and using our bodies, that's what people have been doing in so many different ways, right? Using their bodies, not just on the streets protesting, but like doing these physical protests. I especially actually I've seen them in in Northern Europe, uh, where people are lying. I saw it in Copenhagen, people lying on the ground to represent the dead. Um, really interesting. So no words, but our we'll express ourselves through our bodies.

Fredrik Gertten 2:43

Yeah, because I see there is a debate how can you call Donald Trump a fascist? I mean, if the the scientific definition of a fascist and all of that is, of course, a valid debate. But in the end, to call somebody authoritarian or a fascist or whatever, it it becomes a bit meaningless. But I mean, on the other hand, Lailani, our our work and our skills sometimes is also in language. How do we describe things? But you you found your way by using your professional language as a lawyer.

Leilani Farha 3:22

Yeah, that that's true. And I have an insistence of using my language. I was at a meeting yesterday where there wasn't enough of my language, and I just kept insisting human rights, human rights, human rights. Even in this very fraught time when human rights have very little currency. But one of the things I've been saying about the situation in Gaza, and now potentially Iran and Lebanon and Syria, et cetera, is maybe we need to develop a new language, literally, new language to describe what's happening, to help ourselves understand what's happening. I don't know.

Fredrik Gertten 4:02

I actually think that is really important. Many people have a tendency of of getting stuck in old language. And when the old language is not there anymore, you can you can use it by shouting it or be louder and louder, but in the end, it doesn't really serve the purpose. So we I think we have to invent a new language also for the things we want to achieve. Not only what we don't like, you know.

Leilani Farha 4:30

Right, right. Yeah, I like that.

Fredrik Gertten 4:32

So it's also we so we need to to be sharper also about our dreams and our ambitions.

Leilani Farha 4:41

And I like that. Yeah. Okay.

Fredrik Gertten 4:44

That's good. I'm gonna throw a word at you. Yeah, you have to.

Leilani Farha 4:48

You're ready.

Fredrik Gertten 4:49

No. Water. Water, it's summer, so when I go into the water, I you know the it's like the water hugs me, you know, from all directions. It's like it's uh it's a very deep hug. When and I get out of the water, I can feel a big difference in my mind. It's it's kind of magic. Water is magic. But then, of course, when I shot my last film, um Breaking Social, we shot up in a river in the north of Chile, and there was no water. The water was gone to the monocultures and to the mining activities, and uh the native people who've been living by that river for at least documented 500 years, and they were small farmers, they had no water. So, water can also be extremely political. And I guess also if we talk about the Middle East, but we shouldn't. I mean, we do that sometimes.

Leilani Farha 5:56

Water is something used as a weapon of war, used as a weapon of apartheid historically. Who gets water, how much rationing of water, absolutely colonial use of water. I mean, it's like any other resource, I suppose.

Fredrik Gertten 6:13

Yeah, and then I was reading about that Swiss village that got wiped away by a glacier falling down because of climate change. Yeah, the glaciers are melting. Melting. So water can also tell us a story, and of course, then there is a crisis, so cities also around here, they are talking about how we're going to protect our city from the rising sea levels.

Leilani Farha 6:42

I was in uh Valencia recently. They had those terrible, terrible floods, and you hear about there are island nations that have disappeared and are disappearing due to rising sea levels, climate change, and where do all these people go? And who's doing anything about climate change?

Fredrik Gertten 7:01

Well, not the people in power. Now I'm I need to sip over the water.

Leilani Farha 7:06

Yeah, you're gonna sip some water.

Fredrik Gertten 7:11

Nourishing. I like water. It's it's one of the best drinks you can have.

Leilani Farha 7:16

It absolutely is, and you know, it's related to so many things. Lots of times when I'm yawning a lot, like, but am I really tired? And then if I drink a glass of water, I stop yawning. Or headaches, they say like 90% of headaches can be chased away with a big glass of water. Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 7:35

And then you know, my way of trying to stay fit is to go to this hot yoga. And there's certainly a water relation because I sweat like two or three liters per time. And sometimes I forget to drink enough, so I I really get so sleepy when I've when I lost a lot of water.

Leilani Farha 7:53

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 7:54

Interesting. But then when you're out in descent region, you can see people who get go around with very little water. So it's obviously something you can train your body to. I suppose.

Leilani Farha 8:05

They say, I mean, there are many studies, and it's definitive that being by water, you know, walking, walking along the water, swimming, having access to lakes and rivers and sea, oceans is very good for the soul, very good for the for mental health.

Fredrik Gertten 8:26

25 years ago, it's actually the anniversary now. We made a film called Walking on Water. And it was about the building of the bridge between Malmo and Copenhagen. Right. Right. When we shot that film, we were out on the water a lot, you know, morning with the workers going out. And you know, it was like it's it's nice to be. And when I was really young, I worked as a beer man on a ferry between Malmo and Copenhagen, and I served beer and carried beer from the port into the ship. I was also water, but people got really drunk of that water, so a bit different.

Leilani Farha 9:06

When I was young, I worked on Toronto Island uh for a summer. It was one of the best jobs I've ever had, still to date. And I had to take this little ferry across Lake Ontario from the shore of Toronto to this island, Center Island, it's called. Was pretty nice. It was a nice way to spend my summers.

Fredrik Gertten 9:27

It is to commute by ferry is very different to commute by bus. Very different. Yes. And in many cities like Copenhagen, Stockholm, and others, and many, many more. Of course, you go to Venice or Istanbul, you commute by ferry. It's beautiful. Very nice. You can do that in New York City also. That's cool. That's cool. So that was like two words, and we are rolling. Leilani, enjoy your summer. Thanks. Enjoy your swim. Thanks.

Leilani Farha 10:03

Frederick, your word is dancing.

Fredrik Gertten 10:08

Dancing in the dark. Isn't it? Dancing in the dark. Uh dancing. When I was young, it was like an era of a lot of like traditional jazz. So we danced a lot, and I remember a party. I maybe I was only 18. I danced so much, and my socks were like there was no nothing left by the feet. Yeah, I can still remember that feeling of very fan dancing. And I'm I'm trying to keep it up, but I'm I must admit that I'm um I'm very much that kind of dancer who like to keep my partner close, you know, to move together. And so this kind of rave dance where you dance with yourself. Uh it's hasn't been my thing really.

Leilani Farha 10:58

Not your jam.

Fredrik Gertten 10:59

Not not totally, but I can also go crazy dancing. So dance is important.

Leilani Farha 11:04

Yeah, it's my total happy happy place is dancing. I've used it in all for many reasons to lift the mood.

Fredrik Gertten 11:15

Uh and then you know, as I I've been a lot in in Latin America and you go to Mexico City or to many other cities around Mexico or Chile or wherever you go, people gather on the squares. You know, these the old colonial cities still have the Spanish structure of having a square. Yes.

Leilani Farha 11:37

Yes.

Fredrik Gertten 11:38

It's not uh a strip, it's actually a place built for people to gather.

Leilani Farha 11:44

Yes, so lovely.

Fredrik Gertten 11:45

In many countries, they also use that square to dance. So they somebody brings a speaker and they dance. So in Argentina it could be tango, but also here in Malmo by the by the sea, there are people dancing tango or salsa by the sea. So and it's it's so beautiful just to see people dance. You know, it's it is uh it's the beauty of human connections, it's everything what we love with humanity you see uh when people dance. Absolutely. Uh it's like the total opposite. I mean, when you see Trump make dance moves, it's the opposite of love in dancing.

Leilani Farha 12:28

Absolutely. I remember one of the first uh uh uh city visits I did when I was the UN special rapporteur on housing. I went to Detroit and I was investigating with the special rapporteur on the right to water the city. It was shutting off people's water. And Detroit is made up of a lot of African American families, many of them very poor, and they were living with no water in their homes. And it was it was a devastating visit, very bleak, um, horrible circumstances that people were living in. And at the end of this visit, it was several days, they took us to a community center where they were eating like fried chicken and all sorts of foods, potato salads, and they I mean Detroit, right? It's like the city of music. They put on this music and everyone started to dance. And they invited me and the other special rapporteur up to dance. And we didn't know it was like synchronized dancing. They were doing these like full-on real dances, and we didn't know what we were doing, but they had a way of shadowing you and whispering in your ear, turn left, move your foot right. It was amazing. So we could actually join the dancing. It was one of the most kind of jubilant moments after such heartache, you know, seeing such heartache, and then for the whole community to come together was amazing.

Fredrik Gertten 13:59

Yeah, I I actually think that the dancing is also one of these things that can change your mood, you know, from being depressed and uh everything is shitty. And then suddenly you you start to move your ass and and and it works. So true. So you can see it's like the adrenaline coming in. Something happens that makes you smile suddenly. Absolutely. So people out there, let's dance this time. Get up and dance. And dance against fascism and dance against stupidity, dance against horror, you know?

Leilani Farha 14:38

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 14:40

So I guess that's that's what we're going to do this summer. But Leilani, you it's my time to give you a word. Or a few words.

Leilani Farha 14:49

Uh-oh.

Fredrik Gertten 14:50

Uh-oh. From dance to supply chain.

Leilani Farha 14:54

Oh my god. Wow. Wow. Well, everyone should listen to this amazing podcast we did with Peter S. Goodman, the global economic correspondent for the New York Times. He's written an amazing book about supply chains. To be honest, I I when I hear those words, supply chain, I feel really depressed. Those are like boring words to me, supply chain. But then you read Peter S. Goodman's book, and it's like fascinating. So when I think about supply chains, I think first and foremost about COVID, another very boring word, a very depressing time in the world history. Um, when supply chains were completely disrupted and shelves started to become bare, and we all had to learn why that is. And there's this concept now that most businesses only what's that? Oh, I can't even remember. There's a name for it, but where businesses only stock what they think they can sell quickly and immediately. And because of that, and because of all the slowdown with supply chain, we ended up with bear shelves.

Fredrik Gertten 16:10

Yeah.

Leilani Farha 16:10

Yeah. You are you remember a lot. Really? I thought that was pretty that was pretty lame in my opinion.

Fredrik Gertten 16:17

We will we will ask Peter to come in and correct. Yeah, that's right. Exactly.

Leilani Farha 16:22

But also, I mean, we're at a time right now where all this tariff talk is happening and uh President Trump is pushing back against globalization and the way in which the world's economies have been working. And he's not recognizing that we have created a world economy based on these supply chains. And if you start putting all these tariffs, then it completely disrupts all of the way in which the world's economy works and individual countries' economies work.

Fredrik Gertten 16:58

But of course, um we've been talking before about you know the importance of buying local and to let the money circulate in your in your community.

Leilani Farha 17:09

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 17:10

So you shouldn't go and have coffee at the Starbucks. You should go to a locally owned coffee shop. You know, I mean it should that's I think it's always important to remember. At the same time, people around the world who are buying our goods also have the right to produce stuff that we buy, you know. So it's there there is a balance, and and if that should work, we need, of course, fair trade, a fair trade system, and we also need a fair supply chain, you know, because what Peter shows us in his book is that the big players are now controlling the shipping, and they're also the small business, they don't get access to the containers anymore. So it is again a world where the the big guys are taking all the benefits of the system, and so a fair supply chain is also something that governments around the world should work for, and then you have you need to take down a monopolies and break down the monopolies who are now one big Danish company, Mark, some Chinese, some Americans. And it's like it's very few companies who dominate the the whole shipping industry around the world.

Leilani Farha 18:34

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 18:35

And they're also not paying the sailors, they're not paying the truck drivers. So it's like it's like a way of that's what Peter shows very clearly in his book that everybody who is working in the supply chain has much worse conditions now than it was 20 or 30 years ago. The huge difference. So it's also where the shippers, I mean, that the these companies make more money than ever, but their workers make less money than ever. So it's again a reflection on where we all have landed. So there's a lot to do. There's a lot to do.

Leilani Farha 19:12

You know a lot about supply chains, Frederick.

Fredrik Gertten 19:14

I read a you're a good student, too. I read a freaking book. And I listened to the podcast. Listen to the podcast, please. Exactly. Exactly.

Leilani Farha 19:25

Uh, and Peter's book, which I actually can't remember the title of.

Fredrik Gertten 19:28

How the world run out of everything.

Leilani Farha 19:30

Oh, how the world ran out of everything. There we go. So good at giving examples, and he follows this kind of small business owner who has everything made in China, some kind of, I can't remember what it was, it was some kind of toy that he and his wife, I think, had invented, and just the toils and tribulations of trying to get this toy to market in time for Christmas, uh, which would be his biggest uh time to sell this product. And uh really interesting. And I w the only I will just say one more thing. I said that I find supply chain, though those words boring, but when you really start thinking about the fact that so many of the things that we consume and use on a daily basis come from these shipping containers, never dawns on me. So it's pretty interesting. Supply chain.

Fredrik Gertten 20:21

It is interesting. The world order. It's a worldly world food we are doing here, you know.

Leilani Farha 20:28

Oh, yeah, that's right.

Fredrik Gertten 20:29

Thank you, Leilani. Talk next week. We will.

Leilani Farha 20:34

Bye.

Fredrik Gertten 20:40

Are you ready to? I'm ready. Another word. Oh my gosh. Remake. Or even everything would re but remake. Remake.

Leilani Farha 20:51

Remake. Yeah. Is that a word? Okay. Um, no words. Uh, really, that doesn't, that's not a word that really drums up a lot for me. I think when I like to be honest, when I hear the word remake, it's like I think of television shows or movies.

Fredrik Gertten 21:14

It's a remake of you see, there is there is a word, yeah.

Leilani Farha 21:18

There is a word. And normally it's pretty depressing because normally it's Americans remaking some really good, what they call foreign film or you know, show from another place. I suppose um that then suggests a kind of negative aspect to remaking, which is what was wrong with the original. Um do things really need to be remade?

Fredrik Gertten 21:44

Uh questionable. Uh what would you like to remake, Leilani?

Leilani Farha 21:49

Uh oh, I'd like to remake my career. How about that?

Fredrik Gertten 21:53

You see a remake. Start there. Yeah, you will become a remake up artist.

Leilani Farha 22:03

That's right. I do need a remake up artist, actually. Now that I'm well into my 50s. But you know what else remake makes me think of? It kind of dovetails with the situation we're in with this very precarious planet. You know, the fact that we are killing the planet. The planet is in its most fragile state ever. And the need to remake out of old things rather than building new things. And I guess that's like reuse, recycle. But it's also in the housing world where we're really having a lot of conversations about not building, building, building as the only solution to the housing crisis, but also taking what we have and redoing it and remaking it and refashioning it into affordable housing for those who need it. So that's that's about as far as I can take remake, Frederick.

Fredrik Gertten 23:06

But you can take the make out of re and you can make a revolution or a revelation or oh, you want all the re's.

Leilani Farha 23:13

No, I don't know.

Fredrik Gertten 23:15

If you want, you can go re-crazy. Re-creative.

Leilani Farha 23:23

Recreate is nice. Yeah, recreate. Yes, you see. Rejuvenate.

Fredrik Gertten 23:28

Rejuvenate, yes.

Leilani Farha 23:30

That's nice to uh refurbish. Uh restart. Restart. Yeah. Retrofit, except it's retrofit. It's big in Europe. Retrofitting all the buildings to make them more efficient.

Fredrik Gertten 23:49

But the good thing with this remake word is that you now can pull a restart on me.

Leilani Farha 23:56

Okay, we're gonna restart the word. Yes. The word salad. I think that's what we should call it. Instead of word food, word salad. Well, okay.

Fredrik Gertten 24:06

We can always remake the titles, no worries.

Leilani Farha 24:10

Okay. Are you ready? How about the word sleep?

Fredrik Gertten 24:18

Oh, sleep, schlafen. Dormir, dormire. Ah, yeah. It's nice. I I mean uh I might be slightly better than you in sleeping because you're a lousy one, I know. But whenever I get a good night's sleep, I really appreciate it. It's it's a good thing. I'm a little bit too restless to sleep on daytime or sleep on on trains or cars or whatever. I'm always looking around and my brain is going, and I I don't sleep during films. I can put on a little podcast to fall asleep sometimes. But not ours. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Leilani Farha 25:06

Pushback talks is far too lively.

Fredrik Gertten 25:09

But then sleep is, of course, we have a train here to Copenhagen, which I take mostly when I go to the airport in Copenhagen. And you when you travel at early hours, you can see working people going to very early jobs or coming back from night shifts. And you can see you know the privilege we have who can sleep. And a lot of people don't have the privilege to sleep, and you can see it on their in their faces and on their bodies. It's like in the end, it just becomes a part of their appearance that here are a group of people who are deprived of their right to sleep, you know. So I think we should maybe talk about the right to sleep.

Leilani Farha 25:58

Well, it that is very interesting, Frederick, because people in the United States, in particular, my colleagues, do talk about the right to sleep because there are all these very horrible laws in the US that cities uh are really enforcing, but even the Supreme Court has kind of endorsed through a case called Grants Pass. And those laws say that it is illegal to sleep. Well, they say it's illegal to sleep on the streets, but homeless people don't have anywhere else to sleep. So, in turn, they make it illegal to sleep, basically. And so this idea of the right to sleep is super important. And of course, sleep is absolutely necessary to staying alive. It's it's part of our functioning as human beings. And so the idea that you would deprive people of the right to sleep is to deprive them, of course, of a life-saving thing.

Fredrik Gertten 26:56

I also heard and I learned from our podcast that in the US you you can park your car overnight, but you are not allowed to sleep in your car. So the car is okay, but not a person sleeping inside a car. And there was universities banning students from sleeping in their cars, students who had no student homes.

Leilani Farha 27:20

Yep, absolutely right. And there are now churches, for example, I went to one in San Diego where they offer their parking lot overnight for homeless people to park their cars and sleep in their cars without being ticketed or towed or fined or whatever. Yeah. It's a cruel, cruel world. But I think too, of course, I've I think about the luxury of sleep. And if you're living in a war-torn place, of course, I think about Gaza, but also look at Sudan and all the displacement and people living in these horrible conditions and how difficult it must be to sleep. And I mean, I do think of Gaza because I'm seeing on Instagram it's overnight often. There's all this bombing and they have the drones constantly. Drones, how do you sleep?

Fredrik Gertten 28:09

Yeah, how do you sleep when you have a drone hovering? And you don't know if that drone will also carry a weapon. Exactly. Scary, very scary.

Leilani Farha 28:17

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 28:18

So let's fight for the right to sleep.

Leilani Farha 28:21

I'm with you.

Fredrik Gertten 28:22

For everyone.

Leilani Farha 28:23

Yeah. Okay.

Fredrik Gertten 28:25

Good night. Thanks. See you late, Lani. That was perfect.

Leilani Farha 28:39

Frederick, your word is democracy.

Fredrik Gertten 28:45

Ah, democracia. Um it's interesting. Democracy. Is this an empty word? Or is it something that is a really valid thing that we should talk about? Because it goes like in two directions. Uh, because I I guess that Putin also would call Russia a democratic. And I mean in the old East Bloc countries, they call it the Democratic Republic of you know Germany and so on. So it's sometimes it's kind of a cover-up of something. And now when you see the I mean the development in the US where democracy is like going out, because the whole idea of that system of of you know the three powers that could check each other is kind of going down because of that this administration don't really care about it. And then, of course, I mean, which I also talked about in my uh Breaking Social is that democracy is at sale, you know, you buy it with campaign money and with uh strategic communication, you you buy the public agenda, and then in some ways you also end up with democracy. So, democracy, I think, I mean, you know, when we were out talking about push uh to audiences around the world, people always ask, well, so what is the solution? And I said and I meant it, democracy. You know, I mean, that's the only way we can go, and then we need democratic representatives who can take on the powerful, you know, to can create rules that are also the most powerful need to follow. So it's it's now we have a democracy where you know normal people need to follow the rules, but then if you're rich enough, you don't have to pay taxes, you don't have to follow the rules because you can you can operate over all these different um jurisdictions. I mean, and we see that in the housing style and uh you know in all this the global financial scheme. And it is actually interesting. I think the pandemic showed in some way with the lockdowns that uh the super rich got very frustrated and then they moved out to the yachts and they found their places, and and so the super rich are already trying to find a way to kind of uh live outside of the world that the rest of us are living in.

Leilani Farha 31:37

When I am contemplating democracy these days, I I'm I'm just always struck at how fragile it is. It's amazing. I mean, it's so quickly and easily done away with, it seems to me, by governments. And it takes so much effort and energy to keep it alive for those of us who care about it, which is most people. Um, like if you look at this the status of free expression right now, I mean it's being clobbered in all across Western Europe, all across Eastern Europe, all across the United States, all across Canada, all across Asia, right? I don't know so much about what's happening in Africa around free expression, but it's amazing to me that just so quickly it can be illegal or almost illegal to protest a genocide. How is that possible? How is it possible? And just like that. And then for us to get it back, the right to protest, we have to go to court and spend money litigating, or we have to take to the streets more, or we have to be willing to be imprisoned, or we it's really amazing to me. Just it's so democracy is so very, very fragile.

Fredrik Gertten 33:01

And and this experience that you are now reflecting on is very much a northern perspective in some ways, where we for a period had the space to speak out and to write and and and criticize, and you know, being complicated, as people would say. But of course, in in uh Latin America, with all the the Western supported dictatorships, people died and been was tortured when they were speaking out, and the same goes for many African countries, and of course, also uh in Southeastern Asia and so on. So when we are now facing this, we are like probably getting into the same space as many of our friends in other countries have been into for a long time. So maybe it's also good, it's not good, it's not good at all, but it's good to understand that we are now fighting the same struggle as many other people are doing.

Leilani Farha 34:06

Yeah. I I wonder what you think about the fact that it seems governments are not representing people anymore. You know, that so many millions of people can be protesting about a thing, whether it's Gaza or something else, and yet they're taking all these decisions that just go counter to I think the big problem is actually, you know, the the politicians need to win elections.

Fredrik Gertten 34:34

And that's it become more important than governing well, you know. So everything is about the next election. And then you have this the money-flooded election campaigns with the talking points and the funders, you know, the funders of the elections, they want you to go in one way. And if you go it go against the funders of the campaigns, you will not get any money. So in the end, the the elections are about talking points. And I mean, the talking point could be anti-corruption, you know, but it doesn't really deliver anti-corruption. I mean, it can be whatever.

Leilani Farha 35:17

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 35:18

But I think that's a big problem. Um, and of course, I don't know exactly how to solve it. I I mean the the best way was to kind of to to control all the funding of elections or of political parties, to to level it down to something that is reasonable. Because now elections is a huge industry.

Leilani Farha 35:38

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 35:38

I mean, it's one of the biggest industries in the world, is elections. And and when you buy the service of winning an election, you buy into a scheme that is partly criminal. You know, it's like it's uh because everything is okay as long as you win the election.

Leilani Farha 35:59

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 36:00

You can lie as much as you want, you can cheat, you can create stories that are not true, and you can make people talk about things that are not real. You know, you shift the focus away. And I think if we want to protect our democracies, or you want to develop our democracy into real democracies, we need to be aware of those schemes, and we need to be aware of how they do it. And I I mean my film Breaking Social was partly made to kind of okay, let's talk about this. Let's talk about how they they take over our democracy.

Leilani Farha 36:42

So, everyone, if you care about democracy, go and watch Breaking Social.

Fredrik Gertten 36:47

Thank you, Leilani. No, it's is it me? It's me. It's you shooting at you. What will I shoot against you, my dear Leilani? Are you ready?

Leilani Farha 37:02

Don't shoot it, just send it.

Fredrik Gertten 37:04

And I will send you flowers.

Leilani Farha 37:08

I love flowers. I love receiving flowers, I love growing flowers, I love looking at flowers, I love smelling flowers, I love being amongst flowers or amidst flowers.

Fredrik Gertten 37:27

You're a flower yourself.

Leilani Farha 37:29

I am. In fact, my name, Leilani, means something like heavenly, beautiful flower, something like that. There you go. A lay, you know, when you go to Hawaii, they put a lay around your neck. That's flowers.

Fredrik Gertten 37:45

There you go. I've never been to Hawaii. I've been invited twice, and I could never go.

Leilani Farha 37:51

It's very far away from you.

Fredrik Gertten 37:53

Yeah, we we were invited together last time for the to show push at the mayor's conference, and none of us could go. It was i I'm still a bit sad about that. But it's true. Yeah, far away.

Leilani Farha 38:08

Yeah, flowers are really important to me.

Fredrik Gertten 38:10

In San Francisco in 1967, they were singing, Where have all the flowers gone? You see, where so where has all the flowers gone?

Leilani Farha 38:25

Yeah, where have all the and where have all the young girls gone? Isn't that part of the song too? Let's leave that, Frederick. Uh, and let's just talk about a little bit more about flowers. So I, um, as a gift to my mother, uh, every Christmas, I gift her a flower subscription. So I sent, I have sent to her every month a very beautiful bouquet of flowers. She also loves receiving flowers. And when she comes to my house on the weekends, she often brings me flowers. So it's for me, it's also this mother-daughter connection that's really lovely. Of she also has a green thumb. I have a bit of an indoor green thumb. We both love to grow plants, uh, some of which flower. Um, although I am known to kill an orchid every every so often.

Fredrik Gertten 39:15

I actually, well, that this weekend I bought flowers to our backyard together with my neighbors, and we planted, and it's it looks really, it's really nice. But normally I, you know, I live by a green market. Uh so there is a flower stand or several flower stands, and I quite often buy flowers just to myself, you know. Especially in winter.

Leilani Farha 39:41

It's I do that too.

Fredrik Gertten 39:44

Because I think it's about the need of beauty, you know. I think we can talk about uh housing and homes and city planning and all that, but it's also about beauty. I think people become, you know, when when you come to a beautiful place, you slow down, you know, you you you might yeah, you just sit down on the bench, you you watch people walking by. There is something with beauty that is um so important. And and in a city with flowers, it becomes a city where people can can be gentler and you will see more smiles. And when there's more smiles, there are also more human connection. So I think flowers is the shit.

Leilani Farha 40:41

The bomb. I I can't disagree with that, that's for sure. And when you think about parks in cities and how important they are and how people do commune, and I'm I mean, I'm in London right now recording, and it is a city of such gorgeous parks and well cared for parks. And when people are living on top of each other in flats and really kind of crappy accommodation, the ability to go out and see beauty, as you say, and pause and breathe and then commune with other people, it's pretty nice, very special.

Fredrik Gertten 41:19

It's also democratic in some way, you know, that everybody have. I mean, even if you don't, you're not rich, you live in a small apartment. If there are public spaces where you can breathe and be a human being, the city is giving something back to you. So more parks, more flowers. Long live. Flower power, flower power, and all you know the question where have all the flowers gone, they've gone into this podcast. How sweet, how sweet. Pushback talks goes flowers.

Leilani Farha 42:01

Okay, see you later, Frederick.

Fredrik Gertten 42:04

See you later, later honey. And now I'm going to the word that is like on our minds all the time. Pushback. Pushback.

Leilani Farha 42:20

Nice. Well, why did we why did we name this podcast pushback talks? Um pushing back is what we are kind of all about. Figuring out ways to, and and we like interviewing people who are doing this too, figuring out ways to fight the inequalities that we are seeing everywhere, especially in our cities. And people are doing amazing things to claim their rights, claim space, to claim equality. They are pushing back. Things like uh taking to the streets. I love I mean, I really love a good protest, I have to say that. It's good for on so many levels. Um, personally, it it ends up being good. You get to yell and scream and chant or dance and sing and all sorts of things. You meet cool people always. Quite often a good vibe with protests.

Fredrik Gertten 43:24

People, there are many smiles because I think it is very much about doing something together with others, you know?

Leilani Farha 43:31

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 43:31

Uh that it's easier to meet a complicated, cruel world when you do it together. You know, I I founded an initiative here in in Sweden called Dock Lounge, which is a documentary film club, but we do it in we don't show it in cinema, so it's more in a club or environment where people also can have a glass of wine. And so I think to, for example, to watch a documentary, which are quite Often about you know tough stuff. When you watch it together with other people, you don't get so depressed because you in some way you can feel the heartbeat of the person sitting close to you. You can you listen to the the breathing, or you can hear the the tears coming out, or you know, the emotions. And when you do that as a group, you feel much better. So then you are you are more ready to push back.

Leilani Farha 44:31

I agree with that.

Fredrik Gertten 44:32

And I think another aspect of pushback is that when we focus so much on, I mean, uh and Trump especially is extremely good at grabbing the attention. He and his friend Netanyahu are extremely good at grabbing our attention and make us angry and sad and scared. I think it's important for us to also try to focus and look around and see people pushing back. And of course, it could be in many different ways. But I think we should always have on our mind people who are doing cool stuff and to be inspired by them and support people and say, wow, cool that you're doing this. And that could be a neighborhood initiative, it could be something very local. But I think it's it's something that gives people strength and you know to make it easier to go about life.

Leilani Farha 45:33

Well, and in certainly in my work, it's so easy to just dwell in all the problems. But then when I start thinking about, and this is what you're saying, when I start thinking about all the pushing back people are doing, including myself and my organization, it does make me think, wait a second, we have some power, we still have some power, even if we're being trampled on or other people are being trampled on. And when you engage in in the pushback, it's very rare that you're actually alone in it, right? Not just a street protest, but even if I if I pick up the phone to call a politician and say, I don't think you're doing your job and you're not representing my interests or the interests of this group of people. What I'll find is if I mention this to some friends or colleagues, they'll I did the same thing. I also called. Or they say, Oh, I'm gonna call. And so there's something really nice about the idea of pushing back, but it's never alone. It's always in good company. You're always in good company.

Fredrik Gertten 46:37

Yeah, and also I think also we should remember that what we see now on the global scale is some kind of backlash. I mean, uh Trump and his MAGA gang, the gangsters of MAGA, they are pushing back what we have been successful with: women's rights, LGBTI rights, better understanding of um Native people's rights and Afro-Americans and Latinos in the US. I mean, globally overall, you know, we moved things a long way, and now they're pushing back. So we should also remember that they are attacking our success. You know, so it's also about seeing that we are actually protecting our what we've won, you know, and of course they want to kick us back. But I think overall, um within most people around the planet, everybody knows that climate change is happening. Everybody knows that women should have the same rights as as men. And most people are totally okay with trans people or gay people, you know, it's like it's come on. I mean, the the kids love the trans people dancing, you know. Yeah, I mean, it's like it's you know, it's it's so silly. So uh remember that what we stand for is actually something totally fucking normal, you know. But to push back is also to stand up for what we think is normal, you know.

Leilani Farha 48:14

Absolutely.

Fredrik Gertten 48:14

So it's you don't need to be very radical to push back.

Leilani Farha 48:19

No, you know, and there's so I was just thinking, there's so many ways to push back. Like I we've talked about street protests, but this this little podcast is a way that we are trying to push back. Or there's of course other things like litigation, and there's calling your politicians, or doing a media campaign, or making a documentary or five. It's it's amazing. In fact, there are so many ways to protect what we're doing.

Fredrik Gertten 48:43

But I mean, my bottom line is that everybody can push back in in their own way. That's right. At work by being a decent person, you know, by standing up for other people's rights, you know. It's not that radical, it's just just to be a good person, yeah. And it's in some ways it's easier because the enemies we have in our history are now so bluntly evil, so honestly evil, you know. They don't they're they don't feel any shame.

Leilani Farha 49:13

Yeah, but isn't that interesting that just being kind is a way of pushing back right now? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's kind of mind-blowing, Frederick.

Fredrik Gertten 49:23

But I I like it. So be kind and kiss your loved one, your kids, uh, hug your friends. Oh, you can kiss your friends too, and invite them to sit down with you and have a coffee and talk about life and talk about pushback talks. Tell them about pushback talks. That's our podcast. It's over to you.

Leilani Farha 49:52

I'm gonna send you a word. I have to think of one. Uh-oh. Um money.

Fredrik Gertten 49:58

Money, money, money. Make the rich man's world. Yeah, that's like Abba.

Leilani Farha 50:04

It is.

Fredrik Gertten 50:05

Money, it's a way, you know, it's a it's a practical way to exchange things with people. Um it's a smart way of solving things in some ways, but of course, it seems like money has been grabbed by some people, and and maybe it's always been, of course. The extremely wealthy has always been extremely wealthy and always lived very far away from the rest of us, so it's nothing new in that sense. But the love for money makes something with people, and it's interesting that a lot of people who become really rich they become rich because they they really want to become rich, they are so interested in money, so they don't they would never go for an artistic career or something like that, or something stupid. It would never become a human rights lawyer, you know. So it's it's almost like in some way a choice. Uh, of course, not everybody can choose it. It's much easier if you already have money. So if you come from wealth, it's quite probable that you can stay wealthy. So it it is wealth, it's like it's kind of inherited. Most money is inherited. And in any in a country like Sweden, you can trace it back hundreds of years.

Leilani Farha 51:41

I can imagine.

Fredrik Gertten 51:42

To families who once got some land by the king because they they fought in a war somewhere, or you know, so it's like it's it's basically at one time stolen from people, you know. I mean, I go to Russia, the oligarchs, they they got rich because they stole wealth from the country, you know. And and Trump is he came from money, so I mean you can see that a lot, but but also this like a love of money is very important, and then you can do whatever to get there.

Leilani Farha 52:17

And money seems to beget money. The more money you have, the more money you can get, the more money you have, the more money you can get. Yeah, it goes on and on.

Fredrik Gertten 52:26

It's also this silliness of who has most, who's the richest person on the planet, who is the blah blah blah. And that's important for some people, it's important to be that one, you know. And they already have more money than they can spend forever, you know. So it's not about, oh, I need to buy a new yacht because they can already buy 10, you know. So it's it's a very silly game. And I think it's interesting when I meet super rich people, I find out that they don't read many books, they don't watch many films, they are not really interesting.

Leilani Farha 53:04

Right.

Fredrik Gertten 53:04

I mean, what would would you think you would have an interesting conversation with Elon Musk?

Leilani Farha 53:09

Oh God.

Fredrik Gertten 53:10

No, but I mean honestly.

Leilani Farha 53:12

Conversation. I don't even think he's capable of a conversation.

Fredrik Gertten 53:15

Well, I think that's because the idea is that I'm so smart, so I actually get so rich. But then the smartness in some way is like it's very shallow. It's very directed towards kind of how to make money. And they're of course they're really creative in this way of making money.

Leilani Farha 53:36

There are there are studies that show that people who have money think that they're better than other people simply because they have money. There's a famous uh research that was done, I think out of Harvard or one of those schools, um, using Monopoly, the game of Monopoly, and they gave, you know, a couple of people all the money, like a lot of money to start the game with. And then some of the players had no money. And then when the players with all the money won the game, they talked about themselves as having been so smart and strategic and like they were really like the best player, when really they just had all the money, right?

Fredrik Gertten 54:18

Yeah, and that's interesting because it's even if you have all the money, you you still have to act, you still have to do something. You so you can get the feeling of that you're actually moving in the right way to make things happening for you. Yeah, and and so of course, they also struggle, but they have very poor abilities to understand how other people struggle, people who don't have any money at all. But of course, I mean, it's easy to agree that money has replaced God in many ways, and um, that is a problem. So we should make money less important. And of course, it's not a problem if somebody's done something amazing, uh, an artist made a hit that sells a lot of uh records, and I I'm not against people making money, you know. It's like it's that's not a thing. But we've talked about that in your friend uh Matsuccatu, you know, the Italian-American writer.

Leilani Farha 55:26

Mariana.

Fredrik Gertten 55:26

Mariana, yeah. She says that almost all successful companies on the planet who make money, they base their wealth on public funded research. You know, so it's exactly. So, I mean, we can now see when when Trump is trying to take away funds to Harvard. So, okay, a lot of the success stories coming out of Harvard and then starting up to become big corporations have all been funded by public money in the beginning. And that goes certainly for a country like Sweden or the UK or France or whatever. Yeah, the public money is more willing to take risks, yeah. And then, of course, then if you have loads of money, please share. You know, please share, pay your taxes. Pay your taxes. And there is actually a movement now of millionaires and billionaires who want to pay taxes, and a salute to them.

Leilani Farha 56:25

Yeah. Speaking of money, I have to run to a meeting with one of the shifts, my organization's funders.

Fredrik Gertten 56:35

So money, money, money.

Leilani Farha 56:37

Money, money, money. And hey, how do we fund this podcast? We don't have any money. We can talk about that later.

Fredrik Gertten 56:45

We can talk about it. Leilani, I wish you uh tons of money to the shift and to your work because it's very important. So let's go, money, and see you soon. Bye, Frederick. Bye.

Leilani Farha 56:58

See ya. So, if you like our podcast, you have to let us know. Please send us comments, rate us. I think that helps. Promote the podcast. Tell your friends about us. We need more listeners, and we need a little bit of love too. Love can come in the form of money. If you want to give us a little money every month, you can go to patreon.com, look for pushback talks. Every euro, every pound, every dollar buys Frederick a cortato. No, it helps us produce the podcast. Otherwise, we do it for free. See you. Bye.

Kirsten McRae 57:38

Bye. Pushback Talks is produced by WG Film. To support the podcast, become a patron by going to patreon.com slash pushback talks. Follow us on social media at make underscore the shift and push underscore the film. Or check out our websites makeshift.org, pushthefilm.com, or breaking socialfilm.com.