Word Food: Greta & Empathy

Pushback Talks Season 9 is here with "Word Food"!

This season, Fredrik & Leilani return with their signature bite-sized episodes: sharp, surprising, 15-minute explorations of the words that shape our world. Each week, they pick a single word (or two) and unpack how its simple surface hides deeper social, political, and economic realities.

Think of it as thought-provoking “intellectual snacking” – quick enough for your commute, rich enough to shift how you see power, privilege, and the systems around us.

This week’s episode:

Greta: a conversation about Greta Thunberg's journey towards Palestinian action and what it takes to make a change. 🇵🇸🌍 

Empathy: a discussion about the importance of empathy for everyone while acknowledging the difficulty of extending empathy to people who hurt others. What does it mean to be empathetic, and how is empathy a path for change?

New episodes drop every week.

Make this your ritual for keeping your curiosity – and your resistance – alive!

Transcript

Fredrik Gertten 0:02

I'm Fredrik Gertten, and I'm the filmmaker.

Leilani Farha 0:05

And I'm Leilani Farha, and I'm the advocate.

Fredrik Gertten 0:09

Hello, advocates. This is Pushback Talk. And this is our, you know, the way of us keeping alive, you know, putting words to each other, and we call it word food. Are you ready? Oh dear. I will give you a word. A name. Greta.

Leilani Farha 0:34

Oh, Greta. Everyone loves Greta. Well, not everyone loves Greta.

Fredrik Gertten 0:39

Not everyone loves Greta.

Leilani Farha 0:41

Greta Thunberg. So she's just amazing. Although I haven't seen her recently on my social media, I'm not sure why. The algorithm isn't funneling her to me. I'm not sure why. So, Greta, I mean, she's an extraordinary young activist with a very clear set of values and morals. And she's doing everything she can to make change in this world and to bring us along with her. She doesn't do these things alone. She works collaboratively, and it's been really interesting to watch her, from my perspective, go from climate to incorporate in her advocacy Palestine in a really meaningful way. She's studied, she's learned, she's, I don't think she knew a lot about Palestine before October 2023. Um, but she knew that she had a moral obligation in light of her platform, in light of her following, and her ability to speak truth to power. She had an obligation in the face of a genocide, and she's using it amazing. She went on one of those flotillas that takes a lot of courage, a lot of courage. And yeah, she's just an extraordinary human being.

Fredrik Gertten 2:05

Yeah. I actually wrote um an article for the Swedish newspaper. They asked me because I've been tweeting that I I loved Greta. And then I wrote a story about why I loved Greta.

Leilani Farha 2:17

Ah, nice.

Fredrik Gertten 2:18

And and I start I started to follow her when she just started to sit outside the parliament in Stockholm when she was really young. Now she's 23. She was then maybe 15 or something. And it's it's amazing to see how this stubbornness, how how it works, you know, and how she managed to kind of formulate the emotions of a whole generation. Because I I've been reading, you know, surveys saying that 70% of all young people under 15 have, you know, regular stomach problems because of the climate. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I mean there's a big part of the young generation are have pain because you know the climate angst. And I think she she managed to make that into yes, we can do something. We can, and it's interesting. I mean, very early, a lot of people started to hate her, and you know, and she got that counter campaigns, and she's always been handling that criticism in a very eloquent way. You know, she never goes into being stupid or vulgar, she's always smart and sharp. And it's interesting to see how difficult it is for people to get to her, you know, to take her down.

Leilani Farha 3:37

It's amazing. She never allows herself in a media interview or in her comments to take the bait, as they say. So people will try to draw her or attack her personally, and her ability to stay completely devoted to the moral argument that she makes. And I mean, she really speaks from place of values, morality, humanity. She just sticks to that. It's amazing, and we can all learn from that to not take the bait. I think Francesca Albanese is another one who never takes the bait, but yes.

Fredrik Gertten 4:14

She's she's also a hero. Um, no, but uh the really cool thing with Greta is her also her age and the way she's been able to inspire a whole generation. Of course, there's been some, you know, I mean, the the German Fight of a Future movement got a problem when Greta went out pro-Palestinian. So, of course, but the the cool thing is that Greta never she never took any fight with them, she just did, I'm I'm doing this, you you do your yours. This is me. This is where I you know, it's like you could easily say that when she went out to speak for the Palestinians, that she was taking a risk, you know, of losing her following. You know, in some ways she did. But I think that kind of that moral compass is so impressive and brave, and uh and I wish we had more people like Greta, but I I think she is an inspiration to a lot of people, and she's also a part of the the light in the dark days, you know.

Leilani Farha 5:22

Absolutely. No, she's she's super cool, and that issue of you know what she risked by taking on Palestine. I was re-listening to a speech by a poet who won the National Book Award for Poetry Palestinian woman, Lena Tufaha. And she said in her speech that uh the only way we'll make change is if human beings show up and are willing to risk something, willing to risk an opportunity, willing to risk fame, limelight, uh, whatever, that that's almost a requirement. Uh, if we allow ourselves comfort and opportunity, um, then we will just be eaten by the system, basically. And I think Greta knows that on an instinctual level. Um, and it does show that she understands what's required to make change to me. I mean, uh, yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 6:24

And we should also remember when we because you opened and said, I haven't really seen her for a while. It doesn't mean that she's not out there doing stuff. No, so it's like so to be seen, and that should go for all of us, that we are not seen all the time when we do important stuff, you know? And uh because sometimes it's the algorithms who decide if we're seen or not, you know.

Leilani Farha 6:52

Yes, and sometimes we're doing other work, quiet work behind the scenes.

Fredrik Gertten 6:57

Also, but she is constantly over here in Sweden, she's also constantly out, being arrested, being out in a lot of different action around Europe also. Yeah, so she's I mean, she was also in London being arrested for Palestine action, you know. Yeah, so I mean I remember she is she is out there, but this is not only about Greta Thumber. I think it's a shout out to all Greta's out there that we we love you and we need you.

Leilani Farha 7:25

100%. Well, I think a good word to go with Greta might be. Are you ready for it?

Fredrik Gertten 7:34

Je suis prête. Stoy listo. Empathy, empathy for the devil. No, that's sympathy.

Leilani Farha 7:47

Who sang that song?

Fredrik Gertten 7:50

Empathy for the devil. That's like that's how my my brain works today. Poor devil, poor fucking devil.

Leilani Farha 7:59

Isn't there a song, Sympathy for the Devil?

Fredrik Gertten 8:01

There is, that's that's the Rolling Stones, yeah. Yeah, um empathy. I think empathy is extremely important, um, as something we need to carry with us all the time. Um, it can be difficult because sometimes people that we should feel empathy for are like be acting in a stupid way or you know not being smart or whatever. So, but but as the right wing or the right, I mean the fascist forces, whatever we call them, name them, they are so making a thing of not having any mercy or any empathy. And and I think that's so interesting. I mean, all these eyes going after immigrants and painting immigrants as pedophiles or they are murderers, or all this this language that comes from the Trump side. It is it's poisonous language, and it's also language and actions that so easily destroys a dream or a life. I mean, also here in Sweden we have now stricter uh immigration laws and people get expelled from the country, you know, kids who've been studying and we're living her whole life here. And these systems, the new models to kick out people, are designed not really to change anything, it's they're designed to send the signal that we are the tough guys, but they are without any empathy. It's brutality as a sign, you know, to show we are tough, we can do this. And in the bottom of that, is there is no mercy, there is no empathy. Because I I can understand that there might be some need of, if not all countries are open, it's very hard for one country to be totally open. I mean, there I can understand that there are levels that you need to find a way to handle, but I think that every human being has a right to dream and to seek luck, you know? And and people all over human history has been seeking luck, you know, seeking a better future. And remember, all the the white guys out there in the US and Canada are people who left Europe once upon a time. Uh, Jewish people who are suffering in in Ukraine or Russia or in Europe, or um religious minorities from the from Britain, or you know, or the Irish who were starved by the by the British, or you know, all this. I mean, and Sweden, one third of our population in the end of the 1800s left during 30 years. One third of the Swedish population went to the US. And that's Minnesota, that's Illinois. They're they're they're full of Swedes. So we've all I mean the that dream is a part of what US the US is, and um, and then then suddenly now denying other people that dream. It's like it's it's horrible. It's horrible.

Leilani Farha 11:26

I I do think it can be hard to have empathy all the time. Um, you know, as you say, some people's experiences are so completely remote from ours, their perspective is so completely different from ours. Um, as someone who's traveled the world, like, you know, I've at like you encountered cultures that don't always jibe with me or, you know, that I can't completely understand. I always wonder whether, I mean, as a human rights lawyer, we don't talk so much about empathy, although, of course, a large part of being able to be a successful human rights lawyer and to believe in that word we talked about in a previous episode, universality. Um, you have to sort of have some level of empathy. But I I try to just think about the world as a as the human family, which is a human rights concept, that we're all part of the human family. So that I don't even need to necessarily totally get how someone's feeling or understand their perspective or thoughts or relate to them. But just by virtue of us all being part of the human family, we owe each other something, which is dignity, respect, kindness, et cetera. Um because I think empathy can be a hard sell, especially right now, where people are so atomized, individual, you know, the me, myself, and i phone, the be, myself, and i phone world. Uh, you know, where everyone is just so in their own zone. And to get to empathy might be really hard. But come on, like the idea of the human family, I don't know, it seems so easy to be able to do it.

Fredrik Gertten 13:13

Empathy for the devil. This is what we are talking about. And I maybe that's an interesting uh thing to try because then you also need to have empathy for the for the killers.

Leilani Farha 13:25

The sure I mean, sometimes I do try to imagine, maybe not k killers, but I do, you know, I mean, I'm so engaged in Palestine, and it is important to try to understand. I mean, I have a couple of Israeli friends who work with Palestinians. I try to understand a little bit. But at the end of the day, I do have to just say, okay, well, we are part of the human family. I don't think I can always I don't think I can go deep and dark, like to understand darkness too much. I don't really want to. Um, or like these ice, I think about that sometimes because it's so in our face here in Canada. These ice because we're manufac we're giving the ice people some of their trucks and things like that here in Canada. And so ice is really prominent, and of course the US is just south of us. So I try to think of these like ice guys going around and like terrifying people. Yeah, I don't know.

Fredrik Gertten 14:24

I can't do it, but and a lot of these guys are recruited from uh neo-Nazi groups like Proud Boys and so on. So, of course, these are guys who suddenly uh for them is Christmas Eve, you know, to legally go out and do what they did in the darkness before.

Leilani Farha 14:40

But in some ways, I mean human rights is so lovely because it protects me from having to be too empathetic because like we have, you know, what is a violation of human rights and what is a criminal act under international law? And so I can kind of cordon off some people. Oh, well, they're committing war crimes or they're committing crimes against humanity, or I don't have to think too much about them. No, but you know, Frederick, in my work, one of the things I'm constantly up against is the maltreatment of people living in homelessness, experiencing homelessness. And it's very hard for other people to have empathy for a homeless person when we live in a world that says that homeless person caused their own homelessness and that they're lazy, they're criminals, they're drug addicts, they're scary, um, they're human traffickers, like all these things to then have people feel feel empathy is very difficult.

Fredrik Gertten 15:38

It's also when people smell and shout and are on drugs. Absolutely.

Leilani Farha 15:45

It's it's alienating.

Fredrik Gertten 15:47

It's not nice to be in it. It's all through your work. I understand better to kind of handle my own feelings around them. Because it's it is when people suddenly become half humans, you know, half animal. That's that's the way you give yourself the right to just kick them out or kill them or do whatever you can do, you know. I mean, so it's that's where the empathy comes in, and this is also a place where the the religious communities are doing a great work, and you know, there are people who really care and do it. I mean, I was recently in Paris, and you can see that in New York, or wherever you go, you see outside the churches, people are standing with food packages. Yeah, you know, and we should admire that that work because these people they show values.

Leilani Farha 16:45

Yeah. Thanks, Frederick.

Fredrik Gertten 16:47

And to friends, if you want to support the podcast, send us some money on Patreon. It's not bad. Patreon.com pushback talks. See you.

Kirsten McRae 16:56

See you.com slash pushback talks. Follow us on social media at make underscore the shift and push underscore the film. Or check out our websites makeshift.org, pushthefilm.com, or breaking social film.com.