Word Food: Big Tech & Resilience

Pushback Talks Season 9 is here with "Word Food"!

This season, Fredrik & Leilani return with their signature bite-sized episodes: sharp, surprising, 15-minute explorations of the words that shape our world. Each week, they pick a single word (or two) and unpack how its simple surface hides deeper social, political, and economic realities.

Think of it as thought-provoking “intellectual snacking” – quick enough for your commute, rich enough to shift how you see power, privilege, and the systems around us.

This week’s episode:

Big Tech: What do we know about Big Tech? They influence elections, collect data, and prioritize profit. Dive into a conversation about the Tech "bros" who try to dominate our lives. 

Resilience: People all around the world show incredible resilience as they fight for a better future. But how can we maintain this stamina? Join in on this week's conversation about resilience.    

New episodes drop every week.

Make this your ritual for keeping your curiosity – and your resistance – alive!

Transcript

Fredrik Gertten 0:02

I'm Fredrik Gertten and I'm the filmmaker.

Leilani Farha 0:05

And I'm Leilani Farha, and I'm the advocate.

Fredrik Gertten 0:09

Hello, advocates. This is Pushback Talk. And this is our, you know, the way of us keeping alive, you know, putting words to each other, and we call it word food. So let's play with words, Leilani. Leilani. Frederick. Are you ready? I will give you two words, but they are combined.

Leilani Farha 0:35

Okay.

Fredrik Gertten 0:36

Big tech.

Leilani Farha 0:38

Oh. Big tech. Big tech and big bros, the bros. Uh as a matter of fact, um Zuckerberg has been on trial, hasn't he? Uh, as of yesterday, uh, around whether his platform, in particular Instagram, was designed to be addictive. Uh, some young people are bringing him to court in the United States to challenge his uh Instagram platform as being bad for human beings and particular human beings, young people, uh, young women, and I assume it also involves people of uh diverse gender identities. And interesting to me, very interesting to me. Of course it's addictive. It's interesting to me to determine whether it's intended to be addictive. Why wouldn't it be? Why is it that all the big tech bros don't let their children use the social media platforms that they've invested in and created? No, they don't. Yeah. Amazing. Wow. Amazing. Uh, there was this woman from was it Facebook? Well, she did a tell all and she was on these circuits talking to Congress, but also that went to the European Union. I can't remember her name. Um, but just talking about um how awful these platforms are for human well-being, and that the companies know it and profit from it. And one of the things I think she revealed was that the bros don't let their kids use these platforms. And look at what's happening in Australia, right? Where the government has has banned certain platforms, access for young people.

Fredrik Gertten 2:25

Happened also in in Denmark.

Leilani Farha 2:27

It's and in Denmark too, yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 2:29

I I think the when I put up the big tech word, is that the big tech were for a very long time selling themselves as we're going to save the world, we're going to make it, you know, there was they were like such a pink, beautiful message around, and we connect the world, we bring, you know, everybody together, community, love, peace, you know. And it in many ways it's it worked for a while. You know, we were connecting, and no, and we still connect with a lot of people around the world with with social media. There is still a beautiful part of it. But it's interesting how how they have now shown their faces. You know, all of them are coming out as the most horrible people on the planet, you know, sitting there supporting Trump, uh, sending in equipment to to help Ice. You know, they they they're like they're horrible. But it's also that more and more people are making the same conclusions as we do. You know, it's like they nobody thinks that the big tech guys are saving the world. You know, we we don't believe in you any longer, and nobody does. I mean, you can over here in Europe, it's I mean, there it's a big debate in many countries now. How how do we legislate, how do we protect our ourselves, you know, from these giants, the tech guys.

Leilani Farha 4:04

Yeah. And I think of recently learning more about this Palantir company, which I think is part of this big tech.

Fredrik Gertten 4:13

Yeah. Yeah, that's Peter Thiel. He's part of that, I think. Yeah.

Leilani Farha 4:16

Everyone knows how as you said, everyone is reacting the same to Palantir in particular. They make, you know, that I don't know if you see if it's popular in Sweden, these rings that people wear.

Fredrik Gertten 4:30

And to pay with and so on, yeah.

Leilani Farha 4:33

Yeah, like it's like biodata that you get. And that that data is going to Palantir. I mean, it's just remarkable to me, the insidiousness. It's like infiltrating everywhere. How to manage big tech in this world, uh, that is actually beyond me. I I myself feel certain addictive tendencies with some of the platforms. I can see all the censorship. Everyone knows the censorship, the algorithms, etc. And how to just, I don't know. I don't know how to manage all of that in my own life. I I mean I have timers now, and I I don't, I'm not on social media the way I used to be, but part of that's because I'm writing the book, but also part of it was just observing myself, like, oh, you're reaching for your phone all the time.

Fredrik Gertten 5:27

I'm I'm still, I mean, I'm I'm totally an addict still. I try to spend more time on Blue Sky than on on on X. Uh Facebook is less interesting, but but and I can sit and scroll stories on on Instagram forever. And of course, it's depends what you look for. I mean, I've been having a lot coming in from the Super Bowl uh Bad Bunny stories, a lot of sweet stories, and then I get all the the late shows coming up, you know. It depends what you listen to. And of course, a lot of the ice raids has been out there, you know. So a lot of important information between citizens are also happening there.

Leilani Farha 6:08

I've been subscribing to a lot of watching a lot of dance videos. So now I get a lot of dance, lovely dance, on my Instagram feed, which is the antidote to a lot of the other stuff that I get. I get mostly Palestine stuff at this point. Uh and a lot of a lot of really interesting housing stuff coming out. Actually, that stuff can for even though it completely challenges the system, right? All of the critiques around financialized housing and the big corporate landlords and et cetera, the whole model and the it still manages to get through the algorithm. So that's something.

Fredrik Gertten 6:49

And I'm I'm not totally in favor of just closing down all the social media because we also I I love to be able to follow the conversations that happens in Chile or in in Canada or in in South Africa or in Malaysia or you know, wherever, you know, I I think it's it's interesting for me to to get that flow. It's like barefoot journalism in some way happening. And then from Palestine totally. So it gives me a way of a more unfiltered way of having a sense on what's cooking on the planet. So if you follow the right people, it's interesting. But the big tech are people profiting from this, and they are also profiting from right-wing agendas, and that's kind of problematic. So for that, I think we need regulation, we need laws. And that's why these guys are hanging out with Trump now, because Trump, you know, wants to support them fighting the European and Australian other legislators. So we need to support our own legislators also in this, that they still dare to take on uh these American giants.

Leilani Farha 8:02

Yeah. And I mean, I think part of what well, I agree with you about regulation. Part of where they get so much of their money isn't from us and users. It's it's from the big the states that are hiring them to infiltrate the weapon companies, the et cetera, et cetera, right? So I haven't thought that through until now. But when you think about it, their positioning is um well, it will be difficult for governments to regulate them because governments are benefiting from their services.

Fredrik Gertten 8:39

So that's true. But I mean, I can feel now over here in Europe and maybe also in Canada, they are not coming up. Go and look for your non-American alternatives. On uh, you know, you don't need to have a Microsoft, you can have uh something else. Or for example, in my search engine, I could recommend everybody to use a search engine called Ecosia, E-C-O-S-I-A. And they donate a lot of they plant trees in Africa, they do a lot of stuff, and it gives you the same service, but it's based maybe in Germany. So you can by trying just to change your habit a little bit, you can take a little bit small fight against the big the tech bros. So I think we should try to go there more. And I'm I'm trying to see what we can do in our company because we're also stuck in in all these American platforms.

Leilani Farha 9:30

Yes, I know.

Fredrik Gertten 9:31

But I also saw now the the the UK government is now looking into to find a new payment system to step out of a visa and and um yeah, well, you know, the credit card companies because they are they they're all controlling us also and making money out of our money.

Leilani Farha 9:47

Crazy, crazy.

Fredrik Gertten 9:48

Which is like it's it's again somebody who is not really giving us anything more than a practical way of paying bills.

Leilani Farha 9:56

Yeah, with huge interest rates.

Fredrik Gertten 9:58

Yeah. So independence can be found in many ways, and I think the tech bros should be challenged because they've shown their real faces now.

Leilani Farha 10:06

I was super happy with that company UpScrolled. A lot of people migrated from Twitter to Upscrolled and from Instagram to up scrolled. It's Palestinian-owned. And I mean, they've in fact it's broken down a couple of times because so many people were subscribing all at once. But it shows you. Sorry, it's people moving from TikTok to up scrolled, I think. Um, because of of course, TikTok is now owned by that American. Is it Peter Thiel that owns TikTok now? I don't know. One of these terrible people. But uh I I think it's great. And I like that. I I like that feeling of people power when you know it's like, yeah, well, we can just go over here. There is something else. The other thing I I just want to say about um social media is there's this idea that you should put down your phone and go and, you know, protest or put down your phone and challenge, you know, that we're if we're gonna make change, we have to put down our phones. And I actually am resisting that to some degree because of what you said, which is one, we get a lot of information from other places and spaces through our social media. But also, I mean, I think it's deeply political, and people are using it in very political and very strategic ways and breaking the algorithms. I mean, Palestine as a cause is as big as it is in part because of the availability of information through social media.

Fredrik Gertten 11:42

Yes.

Leilani Farha 11:42

The the on-the-ground live streaming of a genocide. And so I think we need to protest with our phones. Or some I don't want to just throw it all away. No, I don't think we can just throw it all away because it can be incredibly powerful.

Fredrik Gertten 11:57

And we need to keep talking to each other. I think that's really important. Yeah. But it would be good if we could find ways of not always sending more money into the tech bros accounts.

Leilani Farha 12:07

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 12:08

Difficult, though.

Leilani Farha 12:09

Yes.

Fredrik Gertten 12:10

So that was the big tech. What are you hitting me with, my friends?

Leilani Farha 12:14

Yeah, that's a very good question. Very good question. The word I have for you is resilience.

Fredrik Gertten 12:25

Resilience. Which is like one of these English words that I'm a little bit hard to see. What does it exactly mean? How do I translate it? But it is kind of uh resistance, standing up, uh being consistent in something. But you should maybe explain it for me.

Leilani Farha 12:44

What resilience means?

Fredrik Gertten 12:46

Yeah.

Leilani Farha 12:46

Uh simple. If you're knocked down and you get up, you get up, yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 12:53

You show some resilience. Yeah, no, I think that's resilience is what the people who in the end make it have. And I'm not talking about making it as an entrepreneur. I'm talking about struggles. And uh resilience today can have an impact 50 years from now. We should always remember that we do today lives on. People have this kind of you know, you lost the referendum in Chile, you lost the prudential election, uh, Trump became president again, and everything is lost. Everything we did before is lost. But it's not, you know what? Resistance and movements that are resilient, they will have impact over time because you inspire new generations, and even if even if you burn out, you still have inspired someone else. And I think I think resilience is important in a way that we we maybe we don't have to be as strong every day. We can have we are allowed to have our down days, or we be to be depressed, or feeling that it's too much, but we still have that little burn that okay, we're not giving up. So when I feel tired, I can at least, you know, support the people who are trying to do something. Yeah. You know, this kind of okay, I'm tired today, but I'm really happy for what you are doing. That's you know, that we talked about Greta the other day, you know. It's like, okay, you can't be Greta maybe every day, but you can you can share for Greta, and I think that's important, you know. And Greta is really a resilient person, you know. And uh I think we should admire it and accept that we can't have it every day, but that we should have it over time. And you are a person, Leilani, that are resilient over time. You are always, I mean, you're quite often tired and stressed, but you keep going. You keep going because you have a passion and you have, you know, the the fire to to keep going. And I think, and that's why we also like each other, because I think we both have this kind of we we want to do something, and we are not always sufficient and you know, we're not always amazing, but definitely not. But but we we try, and uh, and I think that's it's worth a lot.

Leilani Farha 15:32

So I think I've come to realize about what you're saying, like you can't do it every day, you know, you don't always show resilience. I've come to realize that the down days and the quiet days and the depressed days and the overwhelmed days are as important as the days when you get back up and say, fuck this. You know, this is wrong. Um I think one, it's what it's how I restore my energy. I I recalibrate, I um stop to smell the roses, so to speak, and am reminded of beauty and light and goodness and and that then enables me to have a little resilience. But it's like I have to re I mean the world is pretty difficult place right now, and it's it's it is hard to wake up every morning and be okay, let's go, go, go.

Fredrik Gertten 16:33

Sometimes you criticize, you know, people for, you know, oh you just you love to drink wine, you love, you know, you only party, you only go to to concerts or arts. Yes. We need great wines, we need good food, we need a lot of friends around the table laughing and and telling stories. That's also resilience, you know. It's also to to stay human, you know, is to be resilient. Oh, that's so nice. So I I think um we should cherish that and not feel ashamed of that, you know, okay, I'll I love to spend an hour in the sun watching the clouds fly by, you know. I I think we should support each other when we are, you know, down there. And then of course we should also support the people who are out taking to the streets and doing. But I I think that there is sometimes with people who are struggled too hard, there can sometimes come some kind of bitterness, which is very un easy to understand, but it's not a beautiful part of resistance, you know, that bitter side. Uh so I think we should help each other out of that emotions and try to to people who are showing the bitter face to help them to laugh sometimes, you know, and to feel the joy of resistance. And that's why I love the Bad Bunny uh halftime show because it was resistance, yeah, it was fun, and it was full of beautiful stories, and and and these stories that continue. And it's like it's about this little uh club in Brooklyn, you know, where the the the Puerto Rican baseball people hang out with this lady who is now 85. That little story, that little social club, yeah, is it's a place of of both resilience and resistance. And that's there's a beauty in that, and we don't need to to wave the big flags all the time, you know. We can also wave the small flags, and and that's also you know, to build community that uh helps people to stay resilient.

Leilani Farha 18:56

I like that, but I really like what you said to stay human is resilience, to stay human. Nice. I will say this at the top I said that Peter Thiel owns TikTok, but it's Larry Ellison, not Peter Thiel.

Fredrik Gertten 19:14

And I should before we leave, I just saw a film uh documentary called Yala Parkour, which is uh set in Gaza.

Leilani Farha 19:24

Yes.

Fredrik Gertten 19:24

So it's uh it's actually Gaza before October 7th. So you come to Gaza where people live in real homes and and uh there are a lot of standing structures that kids jump from. It it's uh it will have its theatrical release in Sweden now, but it's will also come to the US and Canada soon for cinemas. Fantastic. I think, or for I mean, look out for it. Yala Parkour. Beautiful film. It's actually produced here in Malmo. Ah, nice. Yeah, so I met the main character who is he now lives in Sweden, but he was in Gaza for a long time. So it's a story about Gaza, but it's full of joy, you know, playful people.

Leilani Farha 20:07

Yes. Well, that term resilience, which we were talking about, of course, is always ascribed to Palestinians in light of the 60 years more of uh oppression and their ability to keep on. But where I see resilience in Palestinians is in other ways, not just in fighting for their land. But right now, for example, it's it's uh Ramadan and uh just started and um in amidst the rubble, you know, they're setting up their long iftar tables, like to have the meal at the end of when the sun sets, and bringing community together. That is resilience, of course. And continuing with their faith, insofar as those not everyone in Palestine is uh Muslim, but for the majority, uh it's pretty pretty lovely. It is a kind of resilience, uh resistance.

Fredrik Gertten 21:02

Thank you, my dear. So now you have to go and write your book. Last chapter. Last chapter, write the book. Sweet. Thank you, Leilani. Um love to swap words with you.

Leilani Farha 21:17

Likewise. Word food, it's all about word food for now.

unknown 21:23

Bye.

Fredrik Gertten 21:23

Good luck with your book. Bye. And to friends, if you want to support the podcast, send us some money on Patreon. It's not bad. Patreon.com pushback talks. See you.

Kirsten McRae 21:35

See you.com/slash pushback talks. Follow us on social media at make underscore the shift and push underscore the film. Or check out our websites, make the shift.org, pushthefilm.com. Or Breaking Social Film dot com