Word Food: Wealth Tax & Waterfalls

Pushback Talks Season 9 is here with "Word Food"!

This season, Fredrik & Leilani return with their signature bite-sized episodes: sharp, surprising, 15-minute explorations of the words that shape our world. Each week, they pick a single word (or two) and unpack how its simple surface hides deeper social, political, and economic realities.

Think of it as thought-provoking “intellectual snacking” – quick enough for your commute, rich enough to shift how you see power, privilege, and the systems around us.

This week’s episode:

Wealth Tax: 

The conversation gets enthusiastic as Fredrik and Leilani go head-to-head on the benefits and ethics of a wealth tax in today's political landscape. 

Waterfalls: 

Waterfalls are a special place for both Fredrik and Leilani, who bond over the beauty and exploitation of this natural resource. 

New episodes drop every week.

Make this your ritual for keeping your curiosity – and your resistance – alive!

Transcript

Fredrik Gertten 0:02

I'm Frederick Gerton and I'm the filmmaker.

Leilani Farha 0:05

And I'm Leilani Farha, and I'm the advocate.

Fredrik Gertten 0:09

This is the pushback talks, and we are back with our word food. We do this because we don't have time to do anything else. Are you ready, Leilani?

Leilani Farha 0:19

I'm ready, Frederick.

Fredrik Gertten 0:21

I will put you the word wealth tax.

Leilani Farha 0:25

Oh. Wealth tax. Yeah. Well, we need a wealth tax. That's obvious.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

Can we afford a rich?

Leilani Farha 0:34

That's the best question.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

Should we eat the rich?

Leilani Farha 0:37

I love can we afford the rich? I think that's just so bang on, easy to understand. We know we cannot afford the rich. But here's the thing, Frederick. So I've been following these various movements: wealth tax, tax the billionaires. I've seen Ma'am Danny talking about it with Gabrielle Zuckman, French economist. And I think it's it's obvious that billionaires who are paying less tax than, for example, the workers in an Amazon warehouse, it's obvious that they are getting away with criminality. I mean, it's a it's a crime. And we know that the only way to have decent societies and the only way to create well-being is through taxes. I mean, that like we know that's where governments get their money. And the minute you start a government starts giving away their tax space to these guys, and it's mostly guys, those guys end up with more power than governments. And that's the problem. It's obvious. I don't even think it takes a brilliant economist like Zuckmann for us to understand this. It may take his work, his research.

Fredrik Gertten 1:54

What I like with Zuckmann is that he started off as a young economist around the release of the Panama Papers, which is now like 20 years ago or something like that. I don't remember. I mean, so there has been a lot of these big data leaks. Yeah. Panama Papers was some lawyers' office in Panama, but we've had also Swiss leaks from the banks in Switzerland. But basically, we can see how rich people move their money around to avoid paying taxes.

Leilani Farha 2:25

Yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 2:26

And it gives you, it's almost like profiling them on how they see the world. And I think that's really interesting. But on the other hand, all this knowledge hasn't led to that much. Remember, you know, the film Push, we filmed what 17, 18, 19, something like that. The film was released in 19, so we started maybe one year.

Leilani Farha 2:51

17, yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 2:52

Yeah. And since we started doing that film, and we talked about financialization, we talked about all this. Since then, this club of extreme rich people have quadrupled their wealth.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Yes.

Fredrik Gertten 3:08

Even when we knew about all this.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yes.

Fredrik Gertten 3:11

And a lot of people talk about it, but still they've been able to multiply their wealth. And of course, also when the the in the COVID, the governments were just printing new money, and they were so good at grabbing the bigger chunk of that new money sent in their direction. So there it's interesting. So I'm not so sure that the this wealth tax is so super radical.

Leilani Farha 3:38

It's not. And I think there's a problem with it, which doesn't get discussed. And as always, I've I have this reluctance to weigh in on these things. I'm not an economist, I'm a human rights lawyer. But let's be honest about governments right now. A wealth tax that goes to governments. And what will they spend this wealth tax on if we manage to get it? Weapons? Like we're living in a world where governments are not to be trusted. Governments, at least in the Western world, are willing to stoke wars. They are willing to engage in all sorts of activities that are bad for our climate, for Mother Earth. And so I'm not sure I want to.

Fredrik Gertten 4:32

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Leilani Farha 4:32

I'm not I'm not sure I want to entrust. I don't entrust my government that is so pro-NATO and inflating our budget to address Trump's NATO nerve. But I'm I'm more interested in the internet. Can I have a no? I'm gonna say one more thing. So Mariana Mazucato has created a new economic council made up of a bunch of economists. And it may include Zucchman, I don't know, it includes that Annabelle Weber, who's really amazing as well. And I don't know exactly who else. But what I like about what she's saying is she's saying, let's create an economy for the common good. Now that may involve a wealth tax, but she's saying that that wealth tax or what any taxes must be creating outcomes for everyday people, good outcomes, decent jobs that pay decently, affordable housing, uh climate respect, et cetera, or respect for the planet. To me, it's a more nuanced message. It's not sexy. Wealth tax, wealth tax. It's not sexy in that way, but for me, I'm more comfortable with it.

Fredrik Gertten 5:45

That's okay. Um you really weighed in.

Leilani Farha 5:53

Uh I really weighed in. It's it's been on my mind.

Fredrik Gertten 5:56

I'm trying to breathe a bit in in between. Okay, first of all, what is the alternative to have a government? It's no government. So I don't know.

Leilani Farha 6:06

I mean, I didn't say I don't like government. I said I don't want a wealth tax that isn't tied to anything. Like just okay, governments suddenly have more money.

Fredrik Gertten 6:16

Will they spend it on social goods? I mean, that's that's the next step, of course. That's a part of, but I mean, talking about the culture budget, or we're talking about uh free childcare or free dental, uh, you know, whatever, what things that are important that is important for us. So I think um a progressive government could use that money in a good way. Of course. What I like, yes, what I like with the wealth tax is that it is actually doing something, it tells the world, and that's what Zuckman says, it's possible to put this into action. Yeah, and the arguments that the the right-wing people would say is that oh, everybody will move. And then he says, Yes, if all the super rich in French move, it will make less than one percent difference in the tax incomes of France. Because why? Because they don't pay anything now, yeah. So it's and yes, and and that's so interesting that you can say, okay, but then go, then go.

Leilani Farha 7:27

And I agree with that.

Fredrik Gertten 7:28

Yeah, and of course, then he says, but we should, of course, also have a way of saying if you go, you will have to pay five or ten years more.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yes.

Fredrik Gertten 7:38

Uh that's right. Because you made all your money here in this country, you had the education, you had the streets and the welfare and everything. Boom. So what I like about this is that this is actually doable. And and progressive governments around the world will be able to implement this. This is was a big debate now during the Danish elections, and it's coming up in many countries right now. Also, in my own country, we have elections now in September. So it it is cooking up, and I think that's kind of a result of what we all have been talking about for a long time. Next step is uh what uh Matsukato is talking about.

Leilani Farha 8:20

I don't know, I don't know. Because what she's trying to do is change the ideology, not just change a law. She's saying we need a new ideology, not just a new law. And I like that.

Fredrik Gertten 8:32

Well, can I finish my sentence or maybe go ahead? Uh I lost my you're you're breaking me all the time. I think you can you can maybe have two thoughts in your head at the same time. So you can go for this wealth tax, you can also work for a different project, you can have higher ambitions than the wealth tax. So, what's wrong with high ambitions? It's good. And and Mariana Matsuccato, this Italian-American economist, is she's really important uh because she's shown that a lot of the innovation that people make tons of money out of has been paid by public money, public research money, public universities. So it's it's um basically paid by tax money all the way up till they can make money out of it, and then they don't want to pay taxes back. That's wrong. Yeah, and and then this wealth tax is a part that also is filling that gap that also Matsucati has been talking about. So I don't think she would be totally against it. She wants something much better and more fine, but let's take it.

Leilani Farha 9:50

Yeah, but I didn't say she was against it, nor am I against it. I'm only saying that the Canadian government it's fine. Well, what interests me is is the ideology that sits underneath everything right now, and that ideology, and you know it as well as I do, is neoliberalism that has really captured everything, every institution, every political ministry, ever it is absolutely embedded in everything in our societies. And unless we start unlocking that and and challenging that ideology and recognizing Milton Friedman was a freak back when he first came on the scene, people thought he was nuts. And then it just took a dictator, right? A dictator, an iron lady, um, and an actor.

Fredrik Gertten 10:44

Reagan, yeah. Reagan that's her and pin of shit, yeah.

Leilani Farha 10:48

To embrace it. And so if if that craziness can be embraced, well, other craziness, human rights ideology could be embraced too. That's all I'm saying. It's not that I disagree with the wealth tax, and I don't think Mariana does either. I mean, I I don't want to speak for her.

Fredrik Gertten 11:06

Okay, so that was wealth tax, and now I think uh Leilani Farah has spoken.

Leilani Farha 11:12

But you yeah, I have an opinion or two. It's intellectual rigor. Come on, that's what we need. Some intellectual rigor. Okay, I have a very different kind of word for you, although it also starts with a W just to keep some alliteration. It's nice, you know, to be poetic. So here it is. Are you ready? Yes, the word is waterfalls.

Fredrik Gertten 11:36

Ah nice in Portuguese.

Leilani Farha 11:41

Oh, nice.

Fredrik Gertten 11:42

I love waterfalls. When I've been driving around in like in Spain or France, you know, in other countries, you can put Google Maps on waterfalls. And so I've I've been driving into waterfalls many times. I know that. And then I walk out in the forest. It's sometimes you know, it's it can be quite of a hike, and then I find a waterfall. Sometimes there are not so much because it's summer or it's dry, but but it can be totally amazing. And I I swim around in the waterfall. I've done many waterfalls, also in Brazil and other countries, but it's I love waterfalls. And of course, when I've been to Canada, to Toronto, I've been by your small falls down there, the Niagara Falls.

Leilani Farha 12:32

Yeah, just those that little trickle.

Fredrik Gertten 12:34

That little trickle, which is um in some way a disappointment because of you, the the Canadians, have built like a honeymoon village that is so ugly. I know, it's so horrible. So you I I I'd be standing there, and I say, okay, I keep my hands like this, and I watch the waterfalls, and they're amazing, but I can't turn my head around because then I will see all this crap that they can't even stay there for lunch because it's just so depressing.

Leilani Farha 13:09

No, no, no, it's it's multinationals, and yeah, it's awful. It's really there's no the falls are amazing.

Fredrik Gertten 13:14

Yeah, once I crossed the border and uh I got arrested in New York on the American side because I obviously had forgot to get my visa or something. I thought I had it, so I was sitting there.

Leilani Farha 13:30

And the other side is very depressing.

Fredrik Gertten 13:32

Yeah, I I had um I had a screening of a film in in Buffalo. Uh I had I've had screenings in Toronto, and then a friend from Buffalo came and picked me up and drove me, and then he had to sit and wait there at the border control waiting uh by the Niagara Falls. Oh my god. And you're driving over the bridge, it's like it's still it's it's kind of magic. Still, the Canadian side is the worst. But the good thing with the Canadian side, you can drive up to the the Niagara village.

Leilani Farha 14:01

Oh yeah.

Fredrik Gertten 14:02

Niagara by the lake, is it called?

Leilani Farha 14:04

Yeah, yeah, it is nice there, and there's a theater festival that happens there. It's very nice, it's cute, yeah, but it's not Niagara Falls. Niagara Falls is.

Fredrik Gertten 14:13

Oh, and then you can drink ice wine.

Leilani Farha 14:16

Yes, yes. We have a family uh joke in my family around waterfalls. Um, my partner, David, is really into waterfalls, and so every time we plan a family trip, he'll like even like the craziest places we go, even if it's just like for 24 hours, he manages to find a waterfall. However, that's my friend. That's my friend.

Fredrik Gertten 14:42

I like it. I like it.

Leilani Farha 14:43

Yeah, I didn't know about this Google Maps thing, so I must tell him he's gonna be super happy.

Fredrik Gertten 14:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then in I've been to the Victoria Falls, in which is between um Zimbabwe and Sambia.

Leilani Farha 14:56

Is that amazing?

Fredrik Gertten 14:57

That's totally amazing.

Leilani Farha 14:58

Yeah, I've never been.

Fredrik Gertten 14:59

When I I was still kind of many years ago, and there was like, especially on the Sambian side, there was no you could actually walk all the way and just die if you wanted to. There was no restrictions around getting close, right? So we could get really close. Wow, and I actually did with a friend white water rafting below below the the Victoria Falls. Super fun, it was kind of fun, yeah. So, yes, I love waterfalls. Nice. You gave me some time ago the the moonshine idea, moonlight, yeah. Yeah, moonshine is of course something different, yes. Moonlight, and so it's again the beauty of nature that sometimes becomes so strong and so emotional, so it's um it grabs your your heart and it moves you somewhere in a in a beautiful way. So this is what I would like for my summer uh is more waterfalls.

Leilani Farha 15:59

Yeah, I don't think I have those in store for myself. Maybe, maybe. I'm thinking this summer to stay in Canada to travel. I need to see some beauty, that's for sure. I'm really missing beauty, and maybe that's why I'm feeding you these words that evoke nature and the natural world. And yeah, so maybe I'll find some waterfalls. I was thinking of maybe going out east. There must be waterfalls in Nova Scotia or in Newfoundland, so I haven't decided yet.

Fredrik Gertten 16:27

I've been to Newfoundland. I don't remember waterfalls, but maybe I didn't go for them. Um, but it was a very beautiful place.

Leilani Farha 16:35

It's very beautiful. I've been there once. Haven't been to St. John's. I haven't been to St. John's, and I was thinking, oh, I'd like to go to St. John's.

Fredrik Gertten 16:41

It's a it's a cute little town, St. John's. I've been I did a documentary film workshop there. Oh well documentary film community in St. John's. Of course. It was really nice. Yeah. I I recommend you to go there. And they have good fish. And it's a very historical town because it's the it's the the whole trade between Jamaica and and the UK went through St. John's. So it was like the and they also have a tradition of extremely strong women.

Leilani Farha 17:11

There you go.

Fredrik Gertten 17:12

Because of uh the men were at sea. Absolutely. So it's a very the it's uh it's a place for free and strong women.

Leilani Farha 17:20

I find it amazing when you go there and the accent, I mean, they really sound Irish to me. The accent sounds Irish. It's quite it's like quite distinct from other parts of Canada where most people sound a bit like me.

Fredrik Gertten 17:33

And you know they voted to be Canadian, but very small margin?

Leilani Farha 17:37

Yes, and very late, I think, right?

Fredrik Gertten 17:39

Yeah, they could have gone independent. Many Newfoundlanders have been looking at Iceland. Why didn't we go there? Right, and then they have this little small French colony on top of them. You should go there to this French San Miguelotte.

Leilani Farha 17:54

Yeah, say isn't it called Madeleine something? Anyway, no, you might be right.

Fredrik Gertten 17:59

Miguel Miguelotte. Yeah, sorry, I forgot.

Leilani Farha 18:02

I can't remember, but I it's but it's far. I was looking at it actually, because it's supposed to be beautiful and it's supposed to be like quite a throwback, like you feel like you're in the 1950s or something. I was looking at it a couple of summers ago, but it's quite far, and it it can be a little bit cold. And I in the summer I really need warmth.

Fredrik Gertten 18:19

You shouldn't go to Newfoundland, my friend. Go to Cuba.

Leilani Farha 18:24

Yeah, support Cuba.

Fredrik Gertten 18:26

They need your help.

Leilani Farha 18:27

Yeah, they need my help. No.

Fredrik Gertten 18:29

Okay, that was good. Yeah, see you again very soon. You will. And uh you are sweet listeners out there. Please uh comment, tell your friends, subscribe to the podcast. Uh, I mean, all those kind of things that helps uh so other people can can find pushback talks. Help us, and we will get some more energy out of that. That's that's all.

Leilani Farha 18:55

That's all.

Fredrik Gertten 18:56

See you soon, Leilani.

Leilani Farha 18:57

See you later.

Kirsten McRae 19:02

Pushback talks is produced by WG Film. To support the podcast, become a patron by going to patreon.com slash pushback talks. Follow us on social media at make underscore the shift and push underscore the film. Or check out our websites maketheshift.org, pushthefilm.com, or breaking socialfilm.com.